Linux Popularity & Gaming?

[Superewza]

One of the main things that pushes people away from Linux is the lack of gaming support. This is a well known fact. Another thing that stops people from using it is the fact that they don't actually know about it. And another being that when they do decide to use it it doesn't work. So basically i've deduced that to become a more predominant OS Linux/GNU needs three things:


Compatibility
Advertising
Native Games (could tie in with compatibility)

And it could probably make do with just one of the above (advertising). Although while we, the Linux community are pretty much doing all we can to get it into the public eye and those who are able to are helping out with drivers and other such coding that still leaves one problem. Gaming. Sure, there are a few decent games out there for Linux (i'm looking at Nexuiz, Warsow etc. here) but it's not enough (or indeed of good enough quality) to pull people in. One because they're all available on Windows and OSX as well and two because the quality of them isn't what you would get with Windows. Don't get me wrong, they're fun to play but endless Quake 'clones' are getting kinda tired. So what we need is something to show that Linux gaming can work - do for OpenGL what Halo did for Direct3D (and no, i'm not saying that i want to play Halo in Linux here :p ).

[Ammok]

I'd play Halo in linux. :) As a noob here, and a pc gamer, I'd love to play Soulstorm on linux.
I will be trying out wine this year, mainly cos I got Supreme commander and a few others that "should" work in linux. If linux did get a few quality games on it, native, it would storm the planet imo. However, having been using it for six months, it does grow on you and is getting way better than it has ever been.

All it would take is firefox to be able to play the windoze game in the browser, full screen, and we're away. It will come one way or another, linux is bulding critical mass.
I only use xp for games now, nothing else and I'm on the ubuntu box all the time now, and trying to get other noobs interested.

[mrgoose]

A few thoughts of my own if I may. I am ill-qualified to comment about computer games since I seldom play them. I guess as free OS's gain popularity then many games will be ported to them. However, I also suspect that as the companies producing games become greedier, highly controlled environments such as consoles will become increasingly attractive to them, especially for the high revenue generating games. Thus, it will not be computer gaming alone that will cause Microsoft's dominance to crumble, IMHO...


OK first up, Linux is not Windows. This seems obvious but it is also fundamentally important to get your head round what this actually means.
Linux is actually GNU/Linux, which consists of many open source applications working together. The Linux part is actually just the kernel.
Open source means that everyone has access to the source code and can inspect it for bugs & security flaws. So you are free to use this source to develop your own projects if you wish. To understand some of the profound implications of these concepts, you should read Eric Raymond's The Cathedral & the Bazaar (http://www.catb.org/%7Eesr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/). Also available as an audio lecture, in MP3 format.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/linux1_d50_96kbs.mp3 (http://www.catb.org/%7Eesr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/linux1_d50_96kbs.mp3)
Gnu/Linux is not just one operating system. Whilst only Microsoft makes Windows, anyone can make a Linux distro and it can be customised in virtually any way you wish.
There are over 300 currently maintained distros and thousands more that users have made for themselves.
http://distrowatch.com/
GNU/Linux is free (most of the time). Therefore there is no advertising budget.
Outside games, market share actually doesn't matter anyway. If your chosen distro(s) is supported and you can access all your data, then 1%, 10% 100%, is irrelevant.
Market share figures are notoriously unreliable anyway.
Windows is only popular on desktop/laptops and for some servers. However, over 60% of the worlds web servers run GNU/Linux:-
http://news.netcraft.com/
Four out of five of Novatech's webservers run GNU/Linux, including the one you are using right now:-
http://searchdns.netcraft.com/?position=limited&host=novatech.co.uk
On devices such as industrial computers, routers, NAS-boxes, set-top boxes etc. Windows hardly gets a look-in at all. Almost all such computers run open source Unix-like OS's ( GNU/Linux or BSD). As an aside, it is interesting to note how few of these devices ever suffer from malware infection!
Moreover, 62% of the planet's 500 super-computers run Linux. Only 1% run Windows!
http://www.top500.org/overtime/list/32/os
A recent report indicates that 48% of 22 million scanned computers are infected with malware - all Windows boxes of course:-
http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=5365&tag=trunk;content
Microsoft's stranglehold on the desktop OS market is largely due the bundling of Windows with new PC's - in agreements often forced upon OEMs using methods which are highly dubious to say the least.
We are actually seeing a few companies break away from the MS stranglehold, e.g. Novatech.
The Italians have gone one better and a consumer group has already started a class action against Microsoft in order to get Windows Tax refunds:-
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1567695/italians-refunds-windows-preloads
Meantime, I am busy compiling a formal complaint to the OFT and the EU Competition Commission regarding the Windows Tax issue. I hope this will encourage other consumers and consumer groups to follow suit:-
http://www.garfnet.org.uk/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=74&Itemid=331
Seems there is also a petition on the UK Government website pleading with the UK Government to follow the French and German Governments and advise its citizens stop using Internet Explorer 6. Shame it doesn't go further and insist on a boycott of all of Microsoft's products. But it's a start:-
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/02/internet_explorer_6_petition/
Hardware prices are tumbling. Thus the cost of Microsoft's software relative to the cost of the hardware is increasing dramatically.
So, one day, even Joe Six-pack is going to realise that he is being ripped off and will start looking for safer alternatives that represent much better value for money.
And after all that, do Linux users really need to worry if some people choose to continue wasting their money, whilst making Messrs Gates & Ballmer even richer than they are already? Well, no, not really. lol :D

Best wishes, G.

Edit: Windows gamers wanting to join the Penguinistas might find this helpful:-
http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxgames/

[jonbanjo]

One of the main things that pushes people away from Linux is the lack of gaming support. This is a well known fact.

Is it? What proportion of potential Linux users are ("serious") gamers?

I'm not really convinced that the games side is that suited to Linux either. Maybe I'm wrong but I only imagine a very commercial, highly marked industry driving a user base that will always want the latest and greatest it offers. I don't see an easy free model.

I think persuading more "ordinary" users that Linux can be a good and easy system to use is likely to be more successful.

[candtalan]

Seems there is also a petition on the UK Government website pleading with the UK Government to follow the French and German Governments and advise its citizens stop using Internet Explorer 6. Shame it doesn't go further and insist on a boycott of all of Microsoft's products. But it's a start:-
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/02/internet_explorer_6_petition/


Did you also see this from the UK Cabinet office recently?
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/27/uk_goverment_open_source_procurements/
specifically:
http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/media/318020/open_source.pdf

[Helior]

Microsoft managed to manipulate DX into it's dominant position even then openGL is arguably a better technology.

But i'm inclined to disagree anyway, gaming support has little impact on market share, market share comes from all the companies using windows and all the people shopping at pc world, not the minority who are gaming or discussing linux on the web.

[jonbanjo]

Outside games, market share actually doesn't matter anyway.


What about for hardware support?

[waba]

im not a massive gamer - however, i do have a few games, and they are impossible to play on ubuntu - for that reason, i use ubuntu day to day and xp for when i want to play games. does seem like a waste of money JUST to buy an OS to play games on. unfortunatly that codeweaver site that goose mentioned does not support most of the games I play. what I see with the problem of linux is compatibility - my gf uses vista on her laptop (bleugh) and even though it is a waste of space, it seems like ANY hardware or software she adds will work. in particular, im thinking of her dictaphone software, or the software to connect my phone to the computer. its a pain that a lot of companies still dont offer compatiblity for linux (or even OSX for that matter)

[mrgoose]

@ Candtalan, yes I did and very much welcome it. However I remember the original 2004 paper that was basically ignored by most Government departments. Interestingly this original paper has mysteriously disappeared from the Cabinet office site:-
http://www.deoss.org/positive/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=30&Itemid=1

@ Helior, you probably seen this already but there is a very interesting blog post @ Gamasutra regarding the OpenGL vs DirectX debate that really does reinforce the desirability of open standards, and how Microsoft has tried to destroy them in this instance:-
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DavidRosen/20100108/4051/Why_You_Should_Use_OpenGL_And_Not_DirectX.php

@Jonbanjo, very good point and I expressed my self rather badly. What I was trying to say was that market share only matters if your business model depends on that share. E.g. MS makes a lot more money if it has 90% than if it has 9%. It doesn't make much difference to say Debian.

@ Waba, improving the quality, diversity and longevity of hardware support is actually a very strong argument for the adoption of true open standards throughout the IT industry.

The significance of market share in the context of hardware support depends to a large extent on the development model used to develop hardware drivers. That is, if the firmware and the necessary control codes are open standards, then the open source community will write them. The vendor does not need to bother. Market share becomes irrelevant

On the other hand, if drivers are proprietary closed source and the open source community cannot actually see how the hardware actually works, then the vendor has to provide drivers. The vendor then has to bear the cost of producing drivers. Market share becomes a significant factor.

In a nutshell, what Linux needs in order to achieve better hardware support isn't greater market share per se (though it would be nice, obviously lol :) ). It is the much wider adoption of properly documented open standards.

Best wishes, G.

[Superewza]

-snip-

1) Indeed, i found this (http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm) a great read when i was a newbie.

2) I think you'll find i said Linux/GNU in my post ;) But it's hard to find anybody (including yourself) who doesn't just use Linux as 'shorthand'.

3) Indeed, a trait that allows an original release to be all but completely superseded by another, slightly different one (Debain - Ubuntu, Puppy - Macpup). Is this a bad thing though? I think not. One of the most endeering qualities of FOSS is

etc. It seems that you're giving me the facts as it were. But you only need look at my avatar to understand that i'm not a Linux newbie.

As for the other comments, i think a good exclusive game or two would help a lot. If somebody came across it and thought 'hey, that's pretty good' then they would want to play it. Then they'd find out that 'sweet, this is free?' but that they had to be running 'linux?'. Then 'oh snap, that's free too?'. Then they would go on to use it to play the game, but hopefully realize that that's not all Linux could be used for and start using it more - perhaps recommending it to their friends.

Hopefully Google Chrome will be the advertisement that Linux needs, it's a distro that tailers to a very specific market but since it's being made by such a popular company it might lead many people on to seeing what else it has to offer.

Whatever happens i feel that this is the time for FL+OSS to pick up speed, especially in the current economic climate when people will be looking for alternatives to what they would usually have bought without question.

[waba]

a lot of hardware seems to be packaged with propriety drivers (for example, my at gfx card) - in thyis instance, they have pprovided linux with a driver, although not open source - if it were open, would it be detrimental to their profits? i.e. would openess of drivers cause companies to lose their competitive edge, because other companies can just take thier codes?

[Superewza]

I doubt it, since the only thing people could do with the source pretty much is make it better.

[waba]

I doubt it, since the only thing people could do with the source pretty much is make it better.

ahh ok, so it doesnt tell them about how the product itself is put together?

[Superewza]

Is a driver a product? I doubt it - free as in beer. But yes, if you are skilled enough in coding then you would be able to figure out how it works (although it's **** hard, everybody has unique styles and they know it because they've been working it for ages). Although if you were then you would be able to make your own hardware drivers. If there's any advantage to that... unless you were making your own product, but competition is good.

[mrgoose]

@ SuperEwza, Yes, that was one of my first bits of reading too - I like the Lego analogy. And I certainly did not mean to imply you were just a newbie. Please accept my apologies if that's the way it came across to you. No offence intended.

However I still rather regard myself a newbie - or perhaps a perpetual student to be more precise. Whilst I have been flirting with GNU/Linux since the mid 1990's, I only managed finally to dump Windows (http://www.garfnet.org.uk/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=66&Itemid=58) three years ago and I still have much to learn. Moreover I see no shame in admitting it. lol. Another of the big differences between closed systems such as Windows and open ones is that there is so much more one can learn about the open ones. It is an example of true lifelong learning as far as I am concerned.

WRT games:- Creating or porting some popular games on Linux would certainly not hurt - and accept that I may be underestimating the value of this. However, I think the notion of exclusive Linux games rather misses the point. If the game is open source - which it really should be, then it can be freely ported to whatever platform developers wish, including Windows.

The only way you could keep the game exclusively Linux is to make it closed source (or make the license so restrictive that porting was impossible). In which case it would never be distributed with purist distro's such as Debian and would only ever make it to the peripheral repositories in most other distros.

Linux is the figurehead fronting-up a huge open source movement. Yes, ChromeOS will be a great leap in the right direction as you rightly say. Ditto Android. But I think we have to keep our eye on the ball. It's not just about Linux vs Windows. It's about the right to access, test, scrutinise, develop and distribute all the source code for all the applications that affect our daily lives, within our own communities and not to have this technology owned, controlled and manipulated at our expense just to increase the already vast profits of a few rich foreign corporations. "Free as in 'freedom'", as Mr Stallman puts it.

I may be mistaken but I maintain that widespread (preferably universal) adoption of properly documented open standards is what the open source movement really needs.

Best wishes, G.

[jonbanjo]

ahh ok, so it doesnt tell them about how the product itself is put together?

I'm not sure there will ever be universal agreement on this and I suspect there will always be hw manufactures who feel they would loose a competitive advantage if they released source code for their drivers.

Although it does go against the pure Linux way of thinking, I'm not that bothered whether drivers are open or closed source as long as they are freely available.

[Superewza]

Indeed, few people would call themselves experts. But i reckon i've learned enough since i first heard about it 'till now to stop calling myself a newbie.

I never implied that, in fact a lot of people support Windows/OSX but not 'officially'. With OSS there's nothing stopping anybody from doing what they want with it, and as i said earlier that's not a bad thing. But should it be developed for it by default? I'd say no. And definitely using OpenGL over DX.

In a way it is 'Linux v Windows', depending on how you think about it. The only way to have OSS as widespread as you say is for it to be popular and widely used. At the minute... well, Linux is struggling for 1% isn't it? The main thing i think though is getting rid of the stupid monopoly microsoft have at the minute.

[mrgoose]

Indeed, few people would call themselves experts. But i reckon i've learned enough since i first heard about it 'till now to stop calling myself a newbie.

I never implied that, in fact a lot of people support Windows/OSX but not 'officially'. With OSS there's nothing stopping anybody from doing what they want with it, and as i said earlier that's not a bad thing. But should it be developed for it by default? I'd say no. And definitely using OpenGL over DX.

In a way it is 'Linux v Windows', depending on how you think about it. The only way to have OSS as widespread as you say is for it to be popular and widely used. At the minute... well, Linux is struggling for 1% isn't it? The main thing i think though is getting rid of the stupid monopoly microsoft have at the minute.

Indeed. 1% on the desktop. In other markets however, (webservers, NAS boxes, industrial computers etc.) the Penguin's market share is much, much higher and certainly sufficient to encourage plenty more development of the platform.

Totally agree WRT OpenGL over DirectX. Totally agree WRT MS.

As a matter of interest, what would your "fantasy OS market share stats" look like? And why?

Best wishes. G.

[Superewza]

Now that's an interesting question. Sure, having more people would be greatly beneficial to the world of Open Source, hardware and software compatibility, but would it clog the forums with questions? It doesn't with Windows, so is Linux 'user friendly' enough yet? The best of the best i'd say yes, but there are still issues. But then again it's more probable that it would destroy the great community feel it has at the minute. Add to that that one of the main advantages of Linux - the lack of viruses and malware - exists partially because of how few people making a virus for it would effect. Change that number and would Linux start being targeted? They'd have a **** of a time finding cracks in the coding, i can tell you that. Ideally GNU/Linux (+other open source/unix based OSes) would be dominant, but i'd have to see how it handles 10/20% before making a final judgment.

[waba]

i just read that opengl vs directx thing, and was really surprised - i remmebr opengl games when i was younger, buty never thought anything of it...i didnt realise the directx was monopolising the market - i had no idea what it was!! so if opengl is so good, why dont programmers use it? do microsoft throw money at them or something?

i totally agree that microsoft monopolise the market, and really dont agree with it. however, i do know a lot of people who wouldn't want to move to any other OS, just because, after so many years of using windows, they would not see the point in learning to use sonmething else - and they have a point. i was trying to get my dad to use ubuntu the other day, but he seemed so skeptical - his actual response was 'iv only just started to work out how to use the internet!!' i guess we just need to be able to make the choice....

[jonbanjo]

Indeed. 1% on the desktop. In other markets however, (webservers, NAS boxes, industrial computers etc.) the Penguin's market share is much, much higher and certainly sufficient to encourage plenty more development of the platform.

But to what extent does it encourage desktop hw development and support? A web server for example isn't going to require the latest all dancing graphics card and heaven knows how many different USB devices plugged into it...

I'm probably making Linux hw support (which keeps getting better( sound a lot worse than it really is but whereas I doubt anyone in this thread is too put out (and perhaps some, although not me, might even enjoy it) by maybe checking something should work before purchase or having to follow a few instructions on the command line, I think it remains a big stumbling block for some.

[jonbanjo]

i guess we just need to be able to make the choice....

Choice is a good thing and there is nothing wrong with having paid for and closed source software in the options people may consider.

[Superewza]

i just read that opengl vs directx thing, and was really surprised - i remmebr opengl games when i was younger, buty never thought anything of it...i didnt realise the directx was monopolising the market - i had no idea what it was!! so if opengl is so good, why dont programmers use it? do microsoft throw money at them or something?

i totally agree that microsoft monopolise the market, and really dont agree with it. however, i do know a lot of people who wouldn't want to move to any other OS, just because, after so many years of using windows, they would not see the point in learning to use sonmething else - and they have a point. i was trying to get my dad to use ubuntu the other day, but he seemed so skeptical - his actual response was 'iv only just started to work out how to use the internet!!' i guess we just need to be able to make the choice....

There are various reasons that developers use DX, and for the life of me i can't think of a single one that isn't because of Microsofts iron fist. If i remember they commissioned Halo (it was originally going to be on the Mac :eek:) to show people what Direct3D was capable of. It's gone downhill since then. Although since developers have been using it for a while now it would be difficult to get them to work with a different API.

sjbc8m7-cXI

And that situation you described is very similar to the stigma of 'alternative energy'. It's not alternative, it's just energy (well, technically it's just electricity but same difference :p ). The same could be said for GNU/Linux - it's not an 'alternative OS', it's just an OS. The best time to start using it is before you've picked up all the nasty habits from Windows.

[candtalan]

other companies can just take thier codes?

The GPL uses copyright law to guarantee that the codes remain public, so although other (companies) can make use of it, they cannot use it as part of their own (secret) proprietary code, nor just keep it secret.

A few companies, including samsung, are currently being sued because they are refusing to use open code honourably. It is a reason why I have just now avoided buying a samsung product (a mobile phone) and have chosen another manufacturer. When Samsung come to their senses, because they cannot win the case (!) I will then put samsung back on my product buy list.

Best Buy, Samsung, Westinghouse, And Eleven Other Brands Named In SFLC Lawsuit
http://www.softwarefreedom.org/news/2009/dec/14/busybox-gpl-lawsuit/

[waba]

Best Buy, Samsung, Westinghouse, And Eleven Other Brands Named In SFLC Lawsuit
http://www.softwarefreedom.org/news/2009/dec/14/busybox-gpl-lawsuit/

bad companies!!! although i can imiagine that a lot of the time, if can be difficult to find, and then prove, if they use the code in closed software...

[Superewza]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a--zbG_K9kI

That's done in OpenGL... although there is no definite Linux port - they said if they could find time to do it.

[waba]

holy moley that looks amazing!! what made them decide to use opengl, do you know? does EA do that a lot?

[Superewza]

EA are just the publishers, ID Software (the people behind Doom 3 and Quake 4) are the creators. So they must have already been familiar with it, unlike most developers.

This is the engine if you're interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id_Tech_5

although there's been a few rumors surrounding it. I just hope that they release the code before too long, just look at what's been done with their previous engines.

[waba]

looks decent, imj guessing its a lot easier to port opengl games to linux. if they did, do you think it would be possible to play multiplayer online, even against ppl who run windows?

EDIT was just looking at games to buy on linux...you ever tried X3 or shadowlands survivor? they seem like the most popular....

[Superewza]

Well OpenGL is multiplatform. Direct3D isn't. But multiplatform multiplayer? That's a good question... probably not though.

I haven't played either, but X3 looks good. Haven't heard of the other one.

[Brad]

I tried Linux but its just effort to get everything to work and how you like it. With windows everythin just works outa the box pretty much. I want a OS to just work and not become work like i felt linux was.

[Superewza]

I tried Linux but its just effort to get everything to work and how you like it. With windows everythin just works outa the box pretty much. I want a OS to just work and not become work like i felt linux was.

When exactly was this and what were your problems? Linux OSes has changed so much in just these past few months...

[waba]

hmmm was looking for a game similar to call of duty on linux - my COD5 apprantly wont work well in wine :(

[Superewza]

Well i've just been casually playing Nexuiz, Warsow looks good too. I'd like to have a play around with the Cube/Cube 2 engine also.

[waba]

i played nezuit yesterday but didnt like it all that much...im really rubbish at those quake like games (but maybe i just need the practice!) will try warsow too...never heard of cube 2!

[Superewza]

It's also known as Sauerbraten.

But i agree, we need something other than just fast paced games. That said after a short time playing you do get used to it.

[waba]

iv noticed there are a lot of face based games, or role playing games...the latter really not my cup of tea. i tried saubraten a few nmonths back, but there didnt seem to be anyone online to play against. will give it another look.

edit: used to play on the spring engine A LOT - all the types of total annhilation, i loved it. you should try it if you havnt already. red alert esq.

[3Ding]

A few thoughts of my own if I may. I.....many points

That post has inspired me to look around on Linux finally. So thanks very much :)

I believe Maya has a Linux 64bit flavor and if I find my expensive machine will run much faster and efficient using Lunux...then so be it.

Anyone have a link to any good info on compatible software? Maya, Zbrush, Photoshop...those kind. And also hardware (mainly dirvers etc)?

Lots to catch up on...

[waba]

That post has inspired me to look around on Linux finally. So thanks very much :)

I believe Maya has a Linux 64bit flavor and if I find my expensive machine will run much faster and efficient using Lunux...then so be it.

Anyone have a link to any good info on compatible software? Maya, Zbrush, Photoshop...those kind. And also hardware (mainly dirvers etc)?

Lots to catch up on...


Maya? I heard that GIMP is pretty much equivalent to photoshop. More importantly, try tux kart...at first i thought it was a bit rubbish, but thats until i found the turbo button - great racing game!!

[Methanoid]

Does anyone use Wine here on new games? How well does it work?

[Superewza]

Depends on the games does it not? I've never been a huge fan of Wine though, always seems a bit ad hoc.

[waba]

hmm i had problems with wine. seemed very awkward sometimes to get some games to install run. althought there is that list of wine compatible games, and their rankings on how well they work...

[Superewza]

But still, you have to remember that PS3 games are based on (if i'm not much mistaken) an API adapted from OpenGL 1.x, and they're often praised for looking better than the DX versions.