PSU (and graphics card) upgrade

[AlanSJF]

Hi all.

My question concerns PSU and graphics card upgrades, but as the PSU is giving me the most headaches, I figured this would be the best place to post.

PC specs:

Packard Bell iStart 1369
Windows XP Home Edition
Intel Celeron D Processor 356
512kB cache memory/512MB DDR (just upgraded by 1GB)
HDD 80GB/7200rpm
ATI Radeon Xpress 200 series (integrated) 128MB

Motherboard:
RC410-M ECS (three PCI & one PCI Expressx16)
Socket: 775 (Celeron D)

PSU:
FSP250-60HEN

So, as I said, I want to upgrade the PSU and buy a decent graphics card, primarily for gaming. I've spent a couple of days loking into graphics cards and I've a rough idea of what I want to buy, but to be honest I'm lost as far as the PSU is concerned. Some simple, straightforward advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

AlanSJF.

[Jonny2Bad]

Go for a hiper 530w or thermaltake 600w cant go wrong with either, i'd change your cpu its not really a gaming chip and they are so cheap at the moment.

[AlanSJF]

Thanks for the reply, Jonny2Bad.

So I should replace the PSU and the CPU, then get a graphics card?

The thing is, I'm on a budget. I doubt I could afford all three upgrades, so I need to compromise: in which case, what's more important, a better PSU or CPU? If I'm reading things right, a decent graphics card needs a decent PSU, or otherwise what's the point...

You recommended PSUs at 530w and 600w: what's the least I could get away with for a halfway decent graphics card? Like I said, I'm kind of restricted financially, so if I can save a little on a PSU then I'll have more to spend on a card.

[Taxation]

what is the absolue maximum amount of money that you can spend on the upgrade??

[AlanSJF]

The absolute absolute maximum amount?

£120.

That's for a PSU and a graphics card.

Yeah, I know, I'm asking a lot, right? But it is what it is; I'd happily spend more, if I had it.

[JDowdall]

you can find a ati x1950 pro around for about £70 but thats probably too expensive there as for a psu i would go for a hiper 435W or 530W i have the 530W myself so can vouch for it as for a new cpu i think johnny is right i dont know wat cpu's your mobo can take but i would suggest a c2d but that looks a bit out of your budget. also what games are you looking to play as you might be able to get away with a x1650 xt or pro my sister has a x1650pro and it looks good

[wuyanxu]

for 120, it's hard to pick out CPU + graphics + PSU.

i'd personally go for the Corsair Hx520w + a likings of x1950pro

don't think the 520w is low, it can handle a overclocked quad core plus the top of the line (top of the worth buying line) 8800GTX no problem. so it should give you lots of upgrading space.

[AlanSJF]

Thanks for the replies, it's appreciated.

Okay, let's see if I can pin down exactly what I'm after.

JDowall asked about the kind of games I want to play. Well the game I really wanted to play recently that my system as it is now just couldn't handle (even with every setting on low or disabled) was Half-Life 2: Episode One. It would start, stutter along for a few moments, then freeze. I have managed to play Half-Life 2 with almost no problems at all (I think it may have auto-selected optimum settings for my system?), but right now I don't stand a chance with Episode 1 or - once it's out - Orange Box/Episode 2.

Other games my system has handled ok include Far Cry, F.E.A.R. + Extraction Point (both kind of slow, though), Tomb Raider: Legend and Anniversary - but both TR games were only playable with everything dialled down to a minimum; if I tried to play them at the maximum settings, everything was so slow it was practically frozen.

I've already mentioned Orange Box; there's also the two forthcoming F.E.A.R games (whatever the one that isn't going to be called F.E.A.R. ends up being called), and next year Far Cry 2...these are the kind of games I'd like my system to be able to handle.

As far as my budget is concerned, as I said £120 is the most I can afford to spend on upgrades.

The replies so far seem to suggest I need three upgrades: PSU, graphics card, and CPU.

Is there any way I can squeeze all three into £120 and get the results I'm after?

What is the bare minimum I'd need for each?

If I had to sacrifice one upgrade in order to afford two decent ones, which is least important of the three?

[JDowdall]

gaah thats a hard one because to get you gaming you'r gonna need all 3 if u wer on an amd system it wud b easier but i dno if you'r gonna go for a cpu u'll want a dual core probs a core 2 duo which is £70 odd and then a psu to power it and a decent gfx card

[Taxation]

power supply
http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/spec ... l?TT-W0061 (http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?TT-W0061)

Graphics card
http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/spec ... SAP-X165P5 (http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?SAP-X165P5)

Processor wont go to core 2 duo in my opinion
How about this
http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/spec ... ?IL-PPD805 (http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?IL-PPD805)
I know they get hot, but its gotta be better than the celeron

[JDowdall]

i think tax is on the money there that x1650pro is a very good low end gamers card and that 805 dual core is good and VERY overclockable than psu looks good too good work tax :P

[AlanSJF]

Thanks for the tips Taxation, though I gotta say, you're doing major damage to my fragile bank balance!

That said, I knew I was probably - okay, definitely - asking a lot with a £120 budget. And both the card and PSU you recommend were on my short list...

About the Pentium 4 - is the heat factor a potentially big problem? There's a compatible CPU cooler listed for under £20, but that would take the total to over £160...

...then again maybe I should just go ahead and spend the money, and my overdraft be damned!

[Taxation]

Heat wont be a problem, it will run on the warm side, but nothing to worry about.
And to be honest, thats the best i could find on your budget.
The only cheaper power supply is the 435W hiper, and i dont know how that performs, seeing that it is only £20
Any other opinions guys??

[JDowdall]

i think someone on the forums has one and is runnin quite a powerful system on it so mayb go for that

[AlanSJF]

Well if I can safely go without the PSU cooler that's around a £20 saving right there. There's delivery costs of course, but I've had a look and Novatech's aren't too painful. I reckon I can just about manage it.

I'll check in again later though, just in case... :D

[AlanSJF]

Well I've gone and placed my order - the ThermalTake TR2 420w, the Sapphire x1650 Pro and the Intel Pentium 4 805. Not too bad for a few pence over £150 (the hardest thing was justifying that extra £30!). Only downside is the PSU was out of stock so I'll have to wait for that, but otherwise I'm pretty happy.

So thank you all for your thoughts and opinions - Taxation in particular.

I'm sure I'll be back for more advice once I start freaking out about how to install it all...

[Jonny2Bad]

Another happy shopper lol. Good work tax that was a good set of bits, wow are you gonna notice the difference

[Taxation]

Fingers crossed for ya
If all goes without a hitch then you will see a nice increase in games.

[wuyanxu]

well, i can assure you that the x1650pro can handle FEAR on highest (except soft shadow) at 1280x1024 without any problem at all.

Tomb Raider games will also run very smoothly on the x1650pro.

Half Life 2 and Episode 1 ran very well on the x1650pro, but Dark Messiah (using the Source engine) had too detailed texture, so 256MB isn't enough to handle the Reflect All option. but still ran at playable frame rates. so i suspect for the Orange Box, if you don't go crazy on reflections and AA/AF you should be fine.

[AlanSJF]

Good to know, wuyanxu- the x1650 Pro seems to be ticking all the right boxes.

Obviously it's great if a game looks as good as it's supposed to, but my major issue has always been games running so slowly on my (soon-to-be upgraded) system, or not at all as far as HL Episode 1 goes, which never even got out of the blocks.

If the new card (and CPU, PSU) solve that problem for me, as well as improving performance in general, then I'm happy.

Like Taxation said, fingers crossed...

[fxtom]

hi all,

i have the exact same computer as alan has and funnily enough i want to upgrade my graphics card too. so i need a new PSU first before i can think of a new card, due to PB's sucky PSU with 250W.

anyway loads of great help here, but ive heard its hard to install most PSU's in a packard bell, so i was wondering how alan got on installing the thermaltake and then graphics card. or if anyone else knows about this problem with packard bell PC's and installing PSU's, or im just making it up lol =) thx for anyway help

[Jonny2Bad]

Never heard of the problem tbh, but installing a psu is pretty much the easiest job of all just remember what cables you removed from where and you'll be good to go!!

[fxtom]

ah thx for the quick reply. i guess i really won't know till i try it, so ive ordered a 500W ThermalTake and gonna try it out. If it doesn't work out i guess i can return it but hopefully it should be ok! anyway ill be back when ive tried it to let others know cause at first it was pretty confusing and i think a lot of people just think you have to stick the graphics card in and it will work =)

anyway thx for all help its always welcome.

[Jonny2Bad]

Well the worst thing you'd have to do would be change the case which in all honesty isnt a bad thing with such good looking cases on the market

[fxtom]

wow i just had a look at some of the cases on the market and they really do look cool xD maybe when i get some more money. anyway the PSU i ordered should be here tomorrow, but in the meantime ive had a look at graphics cards. was just wondering what everyone thinks of the Geforce 8600GS card cause its only £67 on amazon which i think is pretty reasonable but again i don't know a huge amount about graphics cards.

anyway im pretty sure a 500W power supply will run that and what im really looking for is good graphics but not absolutely incredible if you see what i mean xD for example i'd like to run bioshock on fairly high settings, which i think this card should do. also id like to be able to play future games like starcraft 2 online and crysis. anyway id really love some advice about graphics card lol =) thx!

[JDowdall]

you can find an ati x1950 pro on the internet for around £70 which has much better performance than the 8600gs if you want good performance in most games go for a x1950 pro or a x1950 xt which can be found for about £100 online i would also reccomend the 8800gts 320mb but its probably a bit out of your price bracket @ £150

[fxtom]

ah kool thx. do u know a good, reliable place i could get a radeon x1950 pro from?? thx again^^

[JDowdall]

urrr ebuyer and dabs have it for £80 ish you could look around more cos it is on offer sometimes on overclockers or you could got for the x1950 gt

[fxtom]

ah kool thx. is the GT better then the Pro?? lol sorry i dunno how to tell. the GT is pretty cheap from dabs:

http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Qu ... ationKey=0 (http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=4FHS&SearchType=1&SearchTerms=radeon+x1950&PageMode=3&SearchKey=All&SearchMode=All&NavigationKey=0)

ohhh tempting. i know the XT is better then both of them but its well expensive lol.

[Taxation]

why not try and find a 7900gt, they are mega cheap and still perform really well, and overclock well too

[fxtom]

uh ok ill have a look around. this is a silly question but my thermaltake PSU will come with a plug right? lol. its just that im pretty sure different plugs are used for different amounts of watts, and therefore my old 250W plug would be useless with a new 500W PSU.

uh well have to see.

one more thing is i see that most recent video cards use PCI-express, but im not really sure how to check whether my computer can run cards using this. is it just a case of having a decent enough PSU or will my computer need something else for a PCI-express card?

thx for all your help it really is appreciated. =)

[Taxation]

you need a pci-express slot on your motherboard

[fxtom]

ah kool thx. alan posted the specs of his computer and said:

Motherboard:
RC410-M ECS (three PCI & one PCI Expressx16)
Socket: 775 (Celeron D)

so mine should be the same (i checked my PSU and it had the identical serial number to alans) but i better check just to make sure lol.

[fxtom]

ah great news! it seems to be working ok and its so quiet i can barely hear it lol. the only thing im worried about is the number of wires that the new PSU came with and whether theres enough ventalation because im worried it will overheat >.<. could i maybe post a picture of the inside of my computer so someone could tell me if theres enough room? the old PSU had hardly any wires so there was never that problem.

anyway i hope it will be ok and thanks again your help guys xD now its just a choice of graphics card!

[Taxation]

what did you end up buying??
If you bought the hiper type R 580W then the wires are modular and can come out

[fxtom]

i bought a thermaltake 500W PSU. um i checked the wires and they didn't seem obviously detachable. unfortunaltely the screws dont completely line up with the case so basically i only could screw in the top 2 screws but i think that will be alright.

[Taxation]

take a pic, and we'll take a look, but the best thing to do, is just hide the cables behind stuff and out the way of fans etc

[fxtom]

ok ive arranged the wires as best i can and hopefully my pc wont overheat now (ive heard thermaltake PSU's are really good at keeping ur pc cool so should be ok). now its just a case of choosing a graphics card and im pretty set on the radeon sapphire x1950 pro as suggested =) pretty decent price and ive read it will play most of the recent games with high detail. My CPU is only a P4 3.06GHz which might not be perfect but games like bioshock have recommended specs of 3.0Ghz so i'll see.

one last question i wanted to ask u guys is whether a 512MB graphics card is really better then a 256MB one. in the case of the card im looking at they go for almost the same price, and sometimes the 512 is cheaper. is that because a 512 MB card requires more power? thx again? xD

[JDowdall]

urrr the power difference is really negligible and the difference between he two memory capacities is only real noticable @ high resolutions 256mb will be fine (heck i've got one) but go for a 512mb @ almost the same price

[wuyanxu]

the 512MB is sometimes cheaper is because they often use slower memory chips to make them, so for example, a 256MB may have GDDR3 memory chips while a 512MB may just have a GDDR2 to keep the price down

[JDowdall]

yh if thats the case go for the higher memory speed but tbh i dont think i've seen a gddr2 x1950 pro

[fxtom]

hey its me again^^ sorry to let you know im STILL deciding what video card to get. ive had my eyes on getting a radeon x1950 pro for a while but havent had time to get round to it. anyway ive had a look on ebay and prices for a 512mb one are around £110 so i thought id have a look around. i found this on novatech:

http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/spec ... NOV-1950P5 (http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?NOV-1950P5)

the thing is, it doesnt really "look" like the other cards. they are blue and this one is red lol. so not too sure what to do and would appreciate some help. thx =)

[Jonny2Bad]

Deosnt make any difference really, all tha others are named brands the red 1 is an unnamed brand that nova sell as their own brand. No difference in performance, maybe in warranties but that doesnt really matter!

[fxtom]

ok thx xD its just i could get a sapphire one for £15 more which is probably better if the card stops working or i want to sell it on for some reason (but i doubt i will). anyway im pretty much set on this one:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SAPPHIRE-ATI-RADE ... dZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SAPPHIRE-ATI-RADEON-X1950-PRO-512MB-PCI-E-VISTA-XFIRE_W0QQitemZ170148055601QQihZ007QQcategoryZ3762 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

the only thing is it doesn't say it works on windows xp eventhough im almost completely sure it will as the version of it on radeons site says the 512mb one will. its just the word "vista" in the title slightly concerns me. anyway if somebody could clarify that the card in the link above will work for windows xp that would be great (and put my nerves to rest!) thx xD

[Jonny2Bad]

it will work with both xp and vista but wont work with dx10.

[fxtom]

great thx mate. it will be atleast a year till games "require" dx10 from what i read. by which time my processor will probably need replacing anyway >.<. technology eh? thx for all your help and hopefully i will only have to post 1 more reply stating how ive got on with my graphics card and then i won't have to ask you guys anymore silly questions^^

[Jonny2Bad]

True enuf I think the game crysis will be a big test for dx10 if its really that much better then it will change a lot of vista hating minds, vista isnt a good gaming platform right now as it slows your fps by quite a bit.

[fxtom]

um...well not the best of news >.< i got the x1950 pro this morning only to find out that it wouldn't fit in my PC! Alan posted his specs at the start of his post and stated his istart 1359 had 3 PCI slots and ONE PCI-E slot. i think Tax even recommended a PCI-E card that alan said he was going to get.

So, i assumed my computer would be the same. its also an istart 1359 and i even looked inside to see 3 definte PCI slots and another slot that i assumed was the PCI-E but now believe its an AGP slot...

my suspicions were confirmed when i went to the PB website...

http://www.packardbell.co.uk/products/a ... 1-802.html (http://www.packardbell.co.uk/products/at-home/desktops/istart/istart-1359/productsheet-PB49300701-802.html)

so i guess my options are to return the PCI-E x1950 and look for an AGP card or think about installing a new motherboard and the like, but i think the latter will be way too expensive.

Once again i need your help cause im feeling like such a wally now lol...

[JDowdall]

you can get a agp x1950 pro btw :P

[fxtom]

i know but they can cost around 140 quid and i really cant afford that. out of interest do u know why agp's are more expensive? i might just go for a 7600 gt because it won't hurt my bank balance that much and ill still be able to play future titles (eventhough they might not look amazing).

[JDowdall]

yh thats what i would reccomend and i have seen some cheaper x1950's tho and agp is cheaper because its a dying interface and so the companies need 2 make it worthwhile 2 make the cards

[fxtom]

hey guys, got my 7600gt yesterday and it works amazing! had about an hour and a bit left of the game prey to finish it and with the new the graphics it was like playing a different game. i also bought bioshock which i can play on high graphics no probs and rainbow six vegas which looks amazing too.

i'd just like to say thanks to all your guys that helped me (i wonder what alan did though because i assume he would of had the same problem as me when he bought a PCI-E card). anyway im off to play some games xD see ya!