What fraction of the content of the GCSE Maths course do you use in everyday?

[mr. Strawberry]

so how much of the things thought to you in GCSE maths do you guys use in everyday situations because at the end of every maths lesson i always leave the room thinking "wow another 2 hours of learning things i won't use again"

[snakedoc]

I use maths all the time in my head but not really O Level or A level stuff. If I am honest, I have forgotten more than I can recall. However, I still feel it helpful to have an all round education with good results. It shows you are able to learn new skills for a job or life in general and are able to commit yourself.

[Mr. Lime]

Quite a lot really :)

doing a level maths requires you to remember a lot of it,

plus i do GCSE maths tutoring so i need to remember it :)

[snakedoc]

You are ever so slightly bias are you not Mr. Lime? I would think you would think it important.

[sniperdude]

limesalot lol

[Mr. Lime]

You are ever so slightly bias are you not Mr. Lime? I would think you would think it important.

I am? :) i dont think so really :)

Maths is awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[system7]

I retook AS level maths not so long back, just to see if I could still do it. :cool:

Incredibly shallow course really. It's just equipping you for the next level, which is University Maths or Science.

You get to do interesting things with Maths when you do Physics, in fact you can't know enough of it. :thumbs:

[sniperdude]

haha he edited his OP

[snakedoc]

Yeah, I forgot where I was for a min. Save it for another time.

I am saying vocationally, you would think it important. Do you not agree?

[system7]

"just how much" is a terrible thread title, mathematically speaking.

A true Mathematician would be much more precise. :xgrin:

"What fraction of the content of the GCSE Maths course do you use in (unspecified) everyday situations?" is more satisfying.

In maths it is important to formulate the precise question to be answered. :twisted:

[waba]

one thing maths is particularly good at (even at gcse level) is refining your ability to argue logically. It is not something that can be measured easily, nor do you realise that you are learning to do that at the time, but logical reasoning is very useful in all walks of life!

[snakedoc]

one thing maths is particularly good at (even at gcse level) is refining your ability to argue logically. It is not something that can be measured easily, nor do you realise that you are learning to do that at the time, but logical reasoning is very useful in all walks of life!


With only one exception, when dealing with women.

[Charlotte]

I was fairly good at maths in school, but I've got worse at it since leaving (like 8 years ago!). I think if it was being used regularly I would have stayed good at it, but the rare use of maths meant I gradually forgot much of what I learnt. English however I've stayed pretty good at as its used every day.

[waba]

With only one exception, when dealing with women.

women are highly illogical. my gf was complaining last night continually that she couldnt sleep. when i suggested that maybe her not talking would help her get to sleep, she didnt seem too happy with the suggestion...

everyone forget the stuff you learn in maths, cos most of it is irrelevant. however, its the techniques of thought that you remember!!

[bezza]

I agree that it provides you with the ability to reason logically. That's probably the most important skill that maths teaches you.

But there's lots of other situations when you'll use maths, particularly things like building where you might need to be able to calculate how much of a particular material to buy etc. I've seen things like trig and pythagoras stuff pop up in everyday life. However, I've not had to measure the volume of a cone.

I did A-level maths too. Lots of random stuff in there. The only useful thing from that is some algebra and use of "delta" as a variable which has come in useful in the Black-Scholes Option Valutation method that I have come up against in my job..... once.

[Mr Banana]

I use a calculator for everything, i got a D in maths, should have been lower...

[Ian.H]

More than I thought Iever would. After getting involved with making mods for rFactor a few years ago, I regretted not paying so much attention in maths for some areas as I tried to work out car physics (weight, inertia, position of components, etc etc).


Regards,

Ian

[waba]

maths is the language of science (and part of the language for social science!) so worth learning if you are interested in those areas.

[Stacey Crossley]

I hated maths at school actually told my teacher not to bother trying because i couldn't get my head round it. I got an E in my exam from writing C= pi
x D as every answer!

[bezza]

Maths is fun. Here's a maths question.

A man leaves his house and walks south for 3 miles. He sees the tracks of a bear which he follows West for 2 miles before seeing the bear which he shoots. After this, he travels North for 3 miles to arrive back home. What colour was the bear and why?

[snakedoc]

White but this is not in the spirit of the forum.

[bezza]

White but this is not in the spirit of the forum.

Come again?

[Mr Banana]

Come again?

Sounded like a racist joke to me...

[Charlotte]

i'm confused again..... early night for me I think

[bezza]

i'm confused again..... early night for me I think

I think I might join you.





In the state of confusion, that is ;)

I have no idea why that maths question is a problem?

[snakedoc]

The Bear is White. This is not an area for jokes or riddles. Only serious discussion.

[bezza]

The Bear is White. This is not an area for jokes or riddles. Only serious discussion.

It's not a joke or a riddle. It's a serious maths question that highlights logical thought and how maths can be used to solve everyday problems.

[Charlotte]

I'm still confuzzled......

[Mr Grapes]

only at the north pole can you do those manoeuvres and still end up where you started

but actually the bear is red, since you shot it and it's bleeding all over the snow and white fur...

[bezza]

only at the north pole can you do those manoeuvres and still end up where you started

but actually the bear is red, since you shot it and it's bleeding all over the snow and white fur...

There we go, all correct. Logical thought and maths to solve a problem.

[JimmyT]

what about when your in supermarket and you have a 2 smaller packs of maltesers or one bigger pack and you need to know which option will provide more maltesers per pound?

[bezza]

what about when your in supermarket and you have a 2 smaller packs of maltesers or one bigger pack and you need to know which option will provide more maltesers per pound?

Ignoring the typo :eek:, this is actually a good example and one I have to contemplate quite a lot. Although it tends to be more about beer - best alcohol content per £. The shelf only states £ per litre or something so you have to do your own maths.

[JimmyT]

if you go into boolean maths i bet everyone uses it all the time whether they realise it or not when weighing up options and making decisions, or rationalizing a situation, or working out the possible outcomes of a given situation

i love logic, even if im not especially logical

[JimmyT]

and then of everyone uses the fibonacci sequence/golden rule when deciding if someone/something looks goods, but that one isnt taught, just ingrained in your brain

[Ian.H]

Used to crack me up walking around Macro when I was a teenager watching people using calculators to add the 15% VAT to the shelf price! Never understood what was so difficult about that "challenge".



Regards,

Ian

[Mr Banana]

Used to crack me up walking around Macro when I was a teenager watching people using calculators to add the 15% VAT to the shelf price! Never understood what was so difficult about that "challenge".



Regards,

Ian

Some people like me just don't have a head for numbers at all, i would also have to use a calculator, feel free to crack up over that.

[Mr Grapes]

or that people need an 'app' to work out 10% tip (not saying i'm a 10% tipper...)

[bezza]

Some people like me just don't have a head for numbers at all, i would also have to use a calculator, feel free to crack up over that.

The hard maths can often be broken down into something very easy. It's just a case of spotting that easy thing.

For example, what is 15% of a number.....

You can do 10% of a number - just knock off the last digit.

10% of 149014 is 14901.

You can also do 5% of a number - it's half of 10%

5% of 149014 is 7450.

So 15% is just 10% plus 5% so 22,351.

Working out the inverse of 15% is harder though, as in you have £20 gross, what is the VAT?

[Mr. Lime]

I do love some of the downright crazy mathematical equations used at university level and higher :)

[Mr Grapes]

VAT isn't 15% anymore... it's back to 17.5 and i wouldn't be surprised if it goes up to 20% in the near future...

[waba]

even 17.5% isnt tooo bad to work out (as i was telling my gcse kids :S) work out 10%, half it, half it again, then add it all together. it is why 17.5% was chosen for VAT - it is an easier percentage to work out, compared to 18%, 19%, and at some point we will have to work out VAT because its on everythin!!!

[bezza]

VAT isn't 15% anymore... it's back to 17.5 and i wouldn't be surprised if it goes up to 20% in the near future...

It's also 0% and 5% depending on what you're buying. :p

[Pullen]

i'm currently doing maths GCSE, my predicted grade was B, because although she thought i was very capable, I never listened in class (which I don't, she knows nothing, she teaches half the stuff wrongly or teaches it wayyyy more complicated than it needs to be) anyway, in my MOCs, i got an A, now she put by predicted up to A*, which I was aiming for anyway

[Lorem-Ipsum]

With no work at all I got a B in GCSE. Hated it though.

[rampageturke]

i use trigonometry a lot

[Pullen]

trig is actually really easy lol, (once u get ur head around it) you just need to remember the three formula triangles SOH CAH TOA and remember the inverse thingy for angles :P

[Mr Grapes]

i quite often have to use all sorts for algorithms and such in programming, but usually it's fairly simple algebraic stuff for calculating screen position etc.

[Desertmonk]

Whilst that is fundamental, there is of course far more to trigonometry than a right angle triangle with two sides an and angle "x" ...

Interesting thread though from the "how much do YOU use maths" point of view as opposed to the OP's "I don't pay attention, should I?" scenario.


R.E. Sys 7, what do you expect any level of maths to be except an entry route into the next level? Especially at GCSE/AS/A2 level...

[Mr Grapes]

this is an example question my wife was given on her numeracy and literacy course the job centre made her go on:

"if you go to the cinema and the tickets are £4 and you have £10, can 2 of you afford to see the film"

It's unfortunate that there are so many people unable to answer this question that courses like this exist. so if you find that solving differentiation and integration problems tricky, spare a thought for people who have trouble with the above.

obviously maths surrounds our daily lives more than most people admit, just that some is so low level, it doesn't even register in the conciousness as being maths as your brain just deals with it.
some of it is handled without even processing numbers: throwing/catching a ball are both complex mathematical equations that your brain works out ON THE FLY, taking into account gravity, air resistance and wind speed.

as they say in the opening sequence of Numb3rs "we all use Math(s) every day"

[bezza]

"if you go to the cinema and the tickets are £4 and you have £10, can 2 of you afford to see the film"

The answer is "There is only one of me so it's irrelevant".

[Mr. Lime]

trig is actually really easy lol, (once u get ur head around it) you just need to remember the three formula triangles SOH CAH TOA and remember the inverse thingy for angles :P

Plus the double angle formulas

and the ones to do with sec cosec and cot,

then you can get into cosh, sinh and tanh x :)

[snakedoc]

Many of the posts are referring to simple mental arithmetic and not stuff like working out the volume of a cone or how to triangulate one's location. Much of the stuff I was taught I do not use but basic maths, everyone uses, or at least should do or be able to. Much of it you would only use if you specialised in certain fields and then it would probably be worked out be computer.

Much of what you learn is not really relevant and gets less relevant as time goes on. School to me is a very distant memory I am pleased to say, I learned much more after I left school and also found interests in things I would have run a mile from in school. Such as history and geography.

This all rather depends on what you choose as a vocation though.

[system7]

Gotta say I use a lot of arithmetic in our benchies here. Look at this current favourite one for instance:

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/889/unigineextreme2.jpg

You might wonder what framerates you will get on HD5770 and 1440X900 monitor, or with a single HD5770 graphics card at the same settings? I'd guess about 14 and 12 FPS respectively. :cool:

Some actual results for extrapolation:

HD5770, E6700 @2.66GHz
0XAA 4XAF 1440X900:

extreme: 17.5
normal: 27.5
moderate: 32.2
4XAA:
extreme: 14.4
normal: 21.9
moderate: 25.2

2X HD5770, Q6600 @3.4GHz
0XAA 4XAF 1440X900:

Extreme: 37.2
Normal:57.1
moderate:67.1
4XAA:
Extreme 31.7
Normal: 44.9
Moderate: 51.1

2X HD5770, Q6600 @3.4GHz
0XAA 4XAF 1920X1200:

Extreme: 30.7
Normal: 44.5
Moderate: 50.6
4XAA:
Extreme: 23.7
Normal: 33.6
Moderate: 37.7

HD5870 i7 860
0xAA 16XAF 1920x1200:
extreme: 20.5
normal: 33.7
moderate: 40.1
4xAA:
extreme: 16.4
normal: 26.7
moderate: 31.1

This sort of approach allows me to spot unstated overclocking and keep our benches honest too. :D

[system7]

I rather liked Jacob Bronowski's explanation that if you discover a relation about the sides if a right-angled triangle in maths, you are actually discovering something about the fabric of the space we live in. It matters more, that way. :thumbs:

Here's some techy stuff to ponder. My Buffalo memory is stated to be stable at 5-5-5-15 timings at 2.1 V and DDR2-1066 speed (533MHz). What manual bios timings are suitable for DDR2-800 (400MHz) speed and 2.1V?

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/7517/cpuzbuffalo.jpg (http://img202.imageshack.us/i/cpuzbuffalo.jpg/)

Answer: 4-4-4-12 would be reasonable. :cool:

[mr. Strawberry]

wow this has picked up quickly :D
i was talking more along the lines of quadratics and triginamatry. when do any of you use that
not including mr lime

[Andrew Moore]

back to title and OP.. NONE! Pure and simply because GCSE maths is horrendously easy and anyone who ventures on to do AS and A level will be in for a shock when the find out how much of a joke the past two years of there mathematical life has been.

Andy

[rampageturke]

I have to know quite a few different equations for engineering

[waba]

I rather liked Jacob Bronowski's explanation that if you discover a relation about the sides if a right-angled triangle in maths, you are actually discovering something about the fabric of the space we live in. It matters more, that way. :thumbs:



the way the angles are related actually determines the curvature of the space you are in...so, for example, if you are taking curved space time, a 'triangle' in it would not have angles adding up to 180. turns out that it can be rephrased as an axiom of geometry, as it is also equivalent to whether parallel lines meet or not.

i always try to stay clear of trig. there are millions of identities which i can never remeber :(

[Mrs. Limette]

I only remember adding, subtracting, multipulying and little divison. Algebra which i used to be proud to be able to do has slowly been forgotten :( :( :( wish i could again

[mr. Strawberry]

quick
x=3+5y

y=6 :D

[Mr. Lime]

Snake edit: Please keep this on topic and in spirit of the forum.


quick
x=3+5y

y=6 :D

x=33

[Mr. Lime]

For instance

sin (2x) = 2 * sinx * cosx

cos (2x) = (cosx)^2 - (sinx)^2 = 2(cosx)^2 - 1 = 1 - 2(sinx)^2

(tanx)^2 + 1 = (secx)^2

1 + (cotx)^2 = (cosecx)^2

cotx = 1/tanx

cosecx = 1/sinx

secx = 1/cosx

(sinx)^2 + (cosx)^2 = 1

sin(A+B) = sinA * cosB + cosA * sinB

cos(A+B) = cosA * cosB - sinA * sinB

tan(A+B) = (tanA + tanB)/(1- tanB)

[system7]

Quadratic equations are just the equation of a parabola, just like the path of a ball that you throw, which can be transformed into a circle, ellipse and hyperbola with a change of viewpoint.

The relations of trigonometry quickly condense down to functions of the exponential number "e", of course. It is not long before you realise you are talking about the complex plane, with Euler's Formula for sines and cosines and Euler's Identity relating e, Pi and the root of -1. :)

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/9287/exponential.png (http://img526.imageshack.us/i/exponential.png/)

"e", around 2.7, is a fascinating number and so is the function above. It is called a transcendental, since it cannot be represented by any finite algebraic series of powers of x. The other famous transcendental is Pi, of course. The curve of "e" in the graph only passes through one algebraic pair of co-ordinates, on the y-axis as it goes.

[waba]

the proof for the fact that e is trasncendental is horribly complicated...the same for pi, for that matter. another proof out there is the classification of objects in maths called groups - the proof runs into tens of thousands of pages, and i dont think anyone has ever actually checked the whole thing. how useful is it? its hard to say....just like its hard to say how useful the maths you learn at gcse is. the classification of groups have had some uses in chemistry, physics, but usually you dont know whether there is a 'use' for it!

[Mr Grapes]

this is typically what i need to get my head round when designing/using algorithms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_O_notation#Orders_of_common_functions

[Charlotte]

arrrrrgh.... just click on this page and went 'huh!?' all this figures and stuff... my brain cant cope!

[snakedoc]

arrrrrgh.... just click on this page and went 'huh!?' all this figures and stuff... my brain cant cope!

This is why it's in a "special" forum, for no off topic and serious discussions.

[Charlotte]

This is why it's in a "special" forum, for no off topic and serious discussions.

Sorry :( I'd like to be able to join in the discussion, but in answer the the thread title - very little! I dont use it much at all and it's therefore become something I'm not too good at.

[Mr Grapes]

back to the (current) subject of this post, if someone can list the full content of the GCSE maths curriculum as it is now, I'll output a fractional value of how much i use on a regular basis
Hint, it's more than 1/2

[snakedoc]

I suspect you are using skills which you picked up in school you are unaware of. Some learnign processes are more subtle than others and stay with us for life. Soft skills for example. These can be learned by interacting with Peers at school.

[Mr Grapes]

@Charlotte, if you have a box of six creme eggs goes in the fridge at 6:00pm, at what rate will they disappear from the box and therefore what time will they be totally gone?

[Mr Grapes]

These can be learned by interacting with Peers at school.

like how to avoid getting your head flushed by the year 11's?

[Charlotte]

@Charlotte, if you have a box of six creme eggs goes in the fridge at 6:00pm, at what rate will they disappear from the box and therefore what time will they be totally gone?

ermmm.... well if I had a box of 6, I'd only eat one a day so they'd be gone by around 8pm on the 6th day... :huh:

[snakedoc]

like how to avoid getting your head flushed by the year 11's?

Serious discussion only Mr Grapes!

It's easy as it never once happened to me. One simply does not make a lot of one's self. Soft skills help here too.

[Mr Grapes]

that wasn't so difficult was it?
i guess you just need all you maths questions framed around creme eggs :D
:wee:

[Mr Grapes]

Serious discussion only Mr Grapes!

that was very serious!
it's an important skill to have when navigating school life

[snakedoc]

that was very serious!
it's an important skill to have when navigating school life

Soft skills and negotiating skills come into play. Also trying not to attract any unwanted attention. Try to be one of the herd and you will not be noticed or sigled out. It's never very pleasant for those who are a little different at school.

[Peeej]

Soft skills and negotiating skills come into play. Also trying not to attract any unwanted attention. Try to be one of the herd and you will not be noticed or sigled out. It's never very pleasant for those who are a little different at school.

Off topic :D Serious snake.

I can't remember my math lessons and I have never been able to work out percentages.

Lots of the stuff they teach is no very relevent to real life.

[Charlotte]

I can't remember my math lessons and I have never been able to work out percentages.

.

Perecentages I fine are quite easy. Working out fractions though I havent a clue. And algebra - who ever uses this?

[snakedoc]

I used it all the time in programming.

[Mr Grapes]

i just had a whizz through the mock foundation non-calculator paper here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/maths/mocks/
just to see what i thought was relevant.
I'd say i use 90% of the material in any given week (probably 50% outside of my work)
and in the last few months have probably needed to do everything on that paper

btw I came to that conclusion since i use it on such a regular basis that i could do most of it in my head in about 15 mins

[system7]

I really think you should stop blaming teachers for your inability to see the beauty of mathematics. It is of course a training in how to think clearly, but also an an end in itself. My advice is just to get stuck in.

Look at this graph of the exponential function again:

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/9287/exponential.png

Here's the staggering thing. If you replace real x by imaginary x, the gently rising curve of the exponential curve becomes a perfect circle radius one which incorporates all the trigonometry you might care about. It is not a big leap to derive the wave function of quantum mechanics from this point. :cool:

Fermats last theorem has finally been proved in a sadly complex way, after 300 years of puzzling. Here are the relations that take you from a simple power series to the ultimately mysterious transcendental number Pi. But it quickly also leads to the distribution of the prime numbers, and the greatest currently unsolved problem in mathematics, the Riemann Hypothesis.

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/1999/riemannhypothesis.png (http://img265.imageshack.us/i/riemannhypothesis.png/)

Great stuff, if you ask me. Don't dismiss it. :D

[mr. Strawberry]

well before i went to cowes high i was good at maths B grade now i am E grade something tells me the teacher has something to do with it

[system7]

People won't tell you this in our politically correct society, Steven, but the fact is some people are brainier than others. It is called IQ and reflects the number of linked neurons in you brain. IQ is also a trained ability, but the fact is if you have an IQ below 150, you'll never get to be an Army General. :D

I'm not that brainy, but I can enjoyably follow the insight of my betters. Just stick at it and maximise your ability. :thumbs:

Last insight tonight is to do with electomagnetism. Notice that the electric field in a dipole is always perpendicular to the electric potential. The correct word is orthoganal:

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/9614/dipole.gif (http://img515.imageshack.us/i/dipole.gif/)

Now watch the Moebius transformation that looks uncannily like electric and magnetic fields in action:

JX3VmDgiFnY

Notice how right angles are preserved. Cool stuff! :cool:

[snakedoc]

Arrgh 4d objects! One I always struggle with a tad. Hmm, I recall watching something about a 4d square somewhere someone has made. Obviously not 4d but gave the impression of it.

[Mr. Lime]

Watch this as well :D
BVVfs4zKrgk&NR=1
x7d13SgqUXg&

[Nox]

what about when your in supermarket and you have a 2 smaller packs of maltesers or one bigger pack and you need to know which option will provide more maltesers per pound?

This is pretty much the only time I might use maths, but was this pre GCSE level??!

But even something like that has changed now - the answer is always option c: the two larger packets. So even that use of maths is dwindling...

Nox

[KevinC]

I use maths quite alot but I guess thats one of the "joys" which comes with being a programmer...

[system7]

I watched the sphere turning inside out several times, Mr. Lime. I still don't get it. :huh:

But if it's mathematically proven, then it must work, in whatever space it is applicable to.

Did anyone else get it? :D

[waba]

the sphere thing is based on the topological premise that you can allow something to pass 'throuigh' itself, but not allowed to be 'folded'. as a result, the sphere itself cannot actually exist in the real world, so we cannot have examples of it turning inside out. the important point is, even if you do allow a sphere to pass through itself, it is still incredibly difficult for it to turn inside out without breaking or creasing the sphere. the fact theat it can be done was only proved relatively recently, giving rise to that video.

i.e. its a bit of a cop out of a sphere, system!

[system7]

Ah. I get it. But only if you define a space where the surface can pass through itself.

Bit like the mathematician asked to calculate the smallest length fence to enclose a herd of cows. He simply ran a fence around himself, and defined the entire world outside to be enclosed by it. :D

[Mr Grapes]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/flatland.png

[waba]

Ah. I get it. But only if you define a space where the surface can pass through itself.

Bit like the mathematician asked to calculate the smallest length fence to enclose a herd of cows. He simply ran a fence around himself, and defined the entire world outside to be enclosed by it. :D

haha, yes, silly mathematicians! another theorem states that i can divide aup a pea into 8 different pieces, and then reassemble it to be the size of the Sun (Banach-Tarski theorem). what it doesnt mention is that these pieces are horribly complex - in fact the will be unmeasurable in size. unfortunatly it is not physically possible to continuously divide up matter in such a way...

[system7]

The internet is brilliant for searching for particular topics. Usually find stuff on Wikipedia. :)

I've got a few good titles that got me interested enough to redo AS level Mathematics, which was pretty much all that was available in Evening Classes at the time.

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/1076/mathsbookshelf.jpg (http://img237.imageshack.us/i/mathsbookshelf.jpg/)

The best resource was Portsmouth University library, which has deep titles. Gotta say, I kept a notebook of interesting stuff to remind me and I was quite pleased with the clarity of some of my notes. I didn't think I could get that good.

I really liked conformal mapping which is a bit like the Moebius Transformation. Some interesting extensions resulting from the proof of Fermat's Last Theorem were appearing in the American Mathematical Monthly IIRC, along with the Gelfond-Schneider Theorem in Transcendental Numbers which, though proved in 1934, was new to me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelfond%E2%80%93Schneider_theorem

Transcendental numbers are interesting, because there are infinitely more of them than the algebraic numbers, which are what our usual maths deals with. In other words, algebra is just a drop in the mathematical ocean. :)

[waba]

iv got those books system!!! the simon singh one was probably the first 'maths' book i ever read, and ian stuart is brilliant writer! the story i got of erdos and his drug taking is from that book you have too!!
the orders of infinity for numbers, transcendental numbers etc are fascinating - really mind boggling, and gets to the heart of logic. but yeh, its all about learning the 'language' of maths, so the more you do, the clearer it gets!

[system7]

Yup, mathematical vision and insight developes as you do more. :thumbs:

The David Wells book "You are a Mathematician" is a little treasure. It talks about the skills you need to develop to get the hang of maths. It is also very wide-ranging and stimulating without getting too deep.

I loaned it to a friend, who was shocked that I had corrected the text at one point:

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/9213/typo2.jpg (http://img714.imageshack.us/i/typo2.jpg/)

I was simply reading it with attention. The subject matter is not actually geometry as such here on what is the solutions page. He is trying to get you to spot relations that simplify a problem. :cool:

[JDowdall]

Apparently late to this party, but i imagine I use GCSE maths 5 of 7 days a week (Completed A level maths, now studying A level Further Maths) and I'd say i think about some sort of maths every day. Funnily enough, my time in the shower is ususally when i go over stuff i've learned in maths

Also Mr Lime, what course are you doing? As the A level Maths course doesn't touch the hyperbolic functions sinh(x),cosh(x) and tanh(x) and it's derivatives, and barely touches Double angles. You didn't just copy out of the formula booklet didn't you? :P

[Lorem-Ipsum]

As the A level Maths course doesn't touch the hyperbolic functions sinh(x),cosh(x) and tanh(x) and it's derivatives, and barely touches Double angles. You didn't just copy out of the formula booklet didn't you? :P

I feel dizzy just looking at that. I gave up maths because I just couldn't stand it. Maybe the teacher being a b**** had somthing to do with it.
I like applied maths in physics and chemistry and like maths games like sudoku but I find it hard to just learn the theory.

[JDowdall]

I feel dizzy just looking at that. I gave up maths because I just couldn't stand it. Maybe the teacher being a b**** had somthing to do with it.

I wouldn't worry, It's part of the Further Maths Course at A level, which teaches maths to roughly the same level of first year university. My sister is doing maths GCSE level this year, and I was helping her revise whilst on holiday. I found that at GCSE level, it was less actually being "good at maths", as in, being able to visualise and answer, and various substitutions to use, it was more based on confidence, and how well you knew the vast breadth of topics that were there.

In effect GCSE i found is the equivalent of a broad sprawling shallow subject, vastly different from the maths at A level

[system7]

Trigonometry (Sines, Cosines etc.) is a subject that is showing its age very badly these days. It used to be a staple, but is really very old Greek mathematics. :D

Nevertheless, it is essential in physics. But we quickly use complex numbers described by the exponential function with complex x which are really way simpler.

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/9287/exponential.png

The clumsily named tanh function is the hyperbolic tangent. A hyperbola is really a transformed circle so they stick to the equivalence with the circular functions like tan.

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/9854/hyperbolictangent.png (http://img714.imageshack.us/i/hyperbolictangent.png/)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbolic_function

The tanh function comes into its own in special relativity and electromagnetism. It's more unfamiliar than difficult.

[Mr Grapes]

Hmmm I thought we covered hyperbolic functions at A-Level, but it may have been in my engineering maths (stroud engineering and further engineering maths)

[JDowdall]

Trigonometry (Sines, Cosines etc.) is a subject that is showing its age very badly these days. It used to be a staple, but is really very old Greek mathematics. :D

You say that Trigonometry is old? Sure, that was set out in Euclid's elements, but differentiation and integration, even that was discovered in the 17th century! Maths these days has become stagnant in comparison to some of the great leaps and bounds! The only way that maths is innovative in this day and age is through it's application in Computer Science and Physics.

Myself i'm greatly interested in it's applications in Biology through computer modelling, and hope to find myself studying in that area in university!

[system7]

It's true that most of the maths at O level is about 2000 years old. :D

I do think that tables of trig functions are guaranteed to induce sleep.


sin (2x) = 2 * sinx * cosx

cos (2x) = (cosx)^2 - (sinx)^2 = 2(cosx)^2 - 1 = 1 - 2(sinx)^2

(tanx)^2 + 1 = (secx)^2

1 + (cotx)^2 = (cosecx)^2

cotx = 1/tanx

cosecx = 1/sinx

secx = 1/cosx

(sinx)^2 + (cosx)^2 = 1

sin(A+B) = sinA * cosB + cosA * sinB

cos(A+B) = cosA * cosB - sinA * sinB

tan(A+B) = (tanA + tanB)/(1- tanB)

Terrible stuff, devoid of insight. No wonder the kids are dozing off. :huh:

[JDowdall]

It's true that most of the maths at O level is about 2000 years old. :D

I do think that tables of trig functions are guaranteed to induce sleep.


sin (2x) = 2 * sinx * cosx

cos (2x) = (cosx)^2 - (sinx)^2 = 2(cosx)^2 - 1 = 1 - 2(sinx)^2

(tanx)^2 + 1 = (secx)^2

1 + (cotx)^2 = (cosecx)^2

cotx = 1/tanx

cosecx = 1/sinx

secx = 1/cosx

(sinx)^2 + (cosx)^2 = 1

sin(A+B) = sinA * cosB + cosA * sinB

cos(A+B) = cosA * cosB - sinA * sinB

tan(A+B) = (tanA + tanB)/(1- tanB)

Terrible stuff, devoid of insight. No wonder the kids are dozing off. :huh:

Very true, however half this table is redundant, as the double angle formulas are just using the bottom 3 formulas

I do agree however, that if we were encourage to find them on our own (perhaps being given the start) then people would develop better understanding. Or at least give some context to the learning!

[system7]

We should just plain forget all that boring ol' trig. Let's look at something more interesting:

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/8016/specialrelativity.jpg (http://img641.imageshack.us/i/specialrelativity.jpg/)

At the top is the Lorentz transformation in Einstein's Special Relativity for a particle travelling along the x axis in space. This is all that stuff about clocks running slower and lengths shortening. The angle Phi in the matrix is related to the ratio of the velocity to the speed of light.

Below is the matrix for circular rotation around the X,Y plane, which in our world, we call the Z axis, though this is actually a slightly incorrect way of describing things. With insight, you would guess the Lorentz transformation is a hyperbolic rotation around the space-time plane. And you would be precisely correct. :thumbs:

Now, those hyperbolic functions start to look like something worth learning. :)

[Mr. Lime]

Also Mr Lime, what course are you doing? As the A level Maths course doesn't touch the hyperbolic functions sinh(x),cosh(x) and tanh(x) and it's derivatives, and barely touches Double angles. You didn't just copy out of the formula booklet didn't you? :P

I am doing A level Mei maths :)

on core 4 currently

and i can tell you that all those formulas (with the exception of maybe the tan double angle one cause it isnt used very often) will be in my exam :)

Im in A2 atm :)


Very true, however half this table is redundant, as the double angle formulas are just using the bottom 3 formulas

I use all of it

they came from my personal formula sheet i wrote out to have everything on a sheet of A4, though its getting a little crowded these days, front and back :)

[system7]

Don't you get a formula book for the trig relations and a lot of other stuff that you can use in the exam?

I'm sure I had one for AS level. :)

[Mr. Lime]

Don't you get a formula book for the trig relations and a lot of other stuff that you can use in the exam?

I'm sure I had one for AS level. :)

Yes but trawling through the 15 or so pages of it to find the thing i want is a lot more time consuming for hw than just having them on a sheet :)

[JDowdall]

I am doing A level Mei maths :)

on core 4 currently

and i can tell you that all those formulas (with the exception of maybe the tan double angle one cause it isnt used very often) will be in my exam :)

Im in A2 atm :)



I use all of it

they came from my personal formula sheet i wrote out to have everything on a sheet of A4, though its getting a little crowded these days, front and back :)

Hmmm, fair enough, what exam board?

and what i mean by that half of them are unnecessary is that they are all derived from far fewer equations, eg the double angle formulas. If you sub A = X and B = X into the bottom formulas you get the double angle formulas - unnecessary :)

System 7 - You are correct in that they give you an exam booklet with all sorts of stuff in it, relevant to pretty much all maths courses available at A level, so has lots of stuff you don't need!

[waba]

I wouldn't worry, It's part of the Further Maths Course at A level, which teaches maths to roughly the same level of first year university.

what you find wehen you get to the first year of university it how to WRITE maths, which is actually something you are not taught, even in further maths. you have to really get to the end of the pure modules in further maths before you start touching on how maths should be looked at, i.e in the form of arguments.

also, maths has definatly not stagnated this century - quite the opposite. with fermats last theorem being finally proved after 400 years in 1990s, Godels revolutionary theorems on incompleteness in the 50s, as well as Hilbert and Cantors work on infinity, structure and so on at the turn of the century, these last 200 years or so have been a golden age for mathematics. it was only a few years ago that Grigory Perelman proved Poincare's conjucture, a massive undertaking. although he is a bit of a nutter who has barracaded himself in his room and is not accepting the fields medal or $1 million prize...

[Mr. Lime]

Hmmm, fair enough, what exam board?

and what i mean by that half of them are unnecessary is that they are all derived from far fewer equations, eg the double angle formulas. If you sub A = X and B = X into the bottom formulas you get the double angle formulas - unnecessary :)

System 7 - You are correct in that they give you an exam booklet with all sorts of stuff in it, relevant to pretty much all maths courses available at A level, so has lots of stuff you don't need!

MEI i said that, a maths dedicated part of OCR

[system7]

You guys continue chatting. I'll keep doing some maths to keep us interested! :D

We have said that those awful tables of relations between sines and cosines and stuff greatly simplify if you use the exponential function for complex x which are of use with circles and ellipses. Change the exponent of x to real, and you find the more exotic but useful hyperbolic trig functions. Let's look at planetary trajectories next.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9919/planetaryorbits2.jpg (http://img88.imageshack.us/i/planetaryorbits2.jpg/)

In school we tend to deal with compact algebraic formulas for properties of figures. But in the real world, most algebraic methods fall flat on their back even with the 2 body problem. The 3 body problem is only susceptable to numeric calculation with computers.

We really need something better than algebra to get further. :)

[oli356]

I still think like none of it...

Why would i need to know the area of a circle...i might use it once a year if that hehe

As long as i can multiply/divide etc etc im happy :D

The question is how much of science do you use in everyday life lol

[mr. Strawberry]

I still think like none of it...

Why would i need to know the area of a circle...i might use it once a year if that hehe

As long as i can multiply/divide etc etc im happy :D

The question is how much of science do you use in everyday life lol
that is what i think ;)

[A Ginger Sheep]

GCSE maths is the foundation to studying A level maths. as such is is vital it is part of the curriculum as we need to people who are good at it to want to study maths at a level and further education. this is why maths is always going to be an integral part of the curriculum no point complaining about it. fact is that it is a GCSE which you need. its not hard to do so just get on with doing it.

[Pullen]

people say we should live in a world without sin, but theres only so many problems we can answer using tan and cos

:P

[A Ginger Sheep]

people say we should live in a world without sin, but theres only so many problems we can answer using tan and cos

:P

omg :eek: someone ban the use of terrible maths jokes.

[mr. Strawberry]

i am quoting that :p

[Pullen]

I've spent my entire life researching the multiples of zero and it has amounted to nothing.

[mr. Strawberry]

they are getting really bad now :/

[Pullen]

lol

First time i've been sigged! Wooooo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H229IlRnzA)!

[mr. Strawberry]

you should be ashamed now every thread i post in will know of your jokes :D

[Pullen]

Meh, i found it funny :), so I am honoured.

Edit: i'm going to PM u a good joke, if you dont like it, shame on you

[mr. Strawberry]

ok then :P
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