Are Novatech married to Intel and NVidia?

[system7]

A couple of years back the coolguys at the forum had people building their own computers in quite a big way. This was because the pre-builts at the time tended to be horrible flaky SLI gamers and there was nary a HD4870/4850 graphics card in sight.

Looking at things these days, I see almost nothing but (yawns) i5 750, and at the budget end, those odd new DX10.1 NVidia cards. The few AMD gamers don't advertise their lovely Crossfire ability and have horrible names like "Recoiler" while being pitched above I5 prices.

I just think someone at Novatech doesn't love AMD. :huh:

[cje]

There's quite a few barebones that are AMD based, but I hadn't noticed before the lack of AMD in the fully pre-built ones.

I guess that the demand for pre-built AMD/ATI is less, so it would make business sense for Nova to build Intel's if they have comparatively low demand for AMD pre-builts.

A classic example. I was with my mother looking at some new pc's out of the recently arrived new style Novatech newsletter/ catalogue thingy. And she said "What is AMD, no haven't heard of them, I've heard of Intel".

I think when coming to pre-built's you're dealing with a sector of buyers that have either none or limited knowledge of the internals. And since Intel/ nvidia market their products more heavily, people don't know that an alternative exists, and the just ask for Intel/ nvidia everytime. I was talking to a colleague at work about pc's the other day and I asked him what the spec of his pc was. He didn't know, but he said "Intel something I guess".

However, you look at the barebones section which are aimed at the slightly more technically competent sector of the market and you do see more AMD solution.

However, I agree with you. It is a crying shame that no AMD gamer system is being offered by Novatech. They could squeeze in some very good performance from a 5770 based system, or even crossfire and it would probably offer much better value for money for the customer.

[I3R0K3N7FEET]

well apparently the fermi cards are being shifted with the gt210/220/240 stock so need getting rid of.. should the price of the gt240 drop they would make an almost must buy in the lines of dedicated ppu and would be great choice over the likes of the 4550 to 4650 though as seen the 4670 is still a good card though i think getting rare now..

ive priced several times what a GOOD amd build would cost using the likes of asrock, ECS, biostar and foxconn motherboards (and i dont mean the nasty REAL cheap ones) and deducting vat and estimating commercial value the simple fact is.. intel and nvidia have larger epeen value and will shift more as marketing plays such as (fastest, highest, best and increases AI :/) its almost counter productive of any business to compete with themselves offering an equivalent machine for £100+ less.. you end up with too many unsold items that are rapidly decreasing in value.. and from what i can gather in the world of PC's.. there is one rule.. SELL FAST!!

before alienware was bought by dell i used to love how they advertised their AMD and Intel setups but now theyre almost excllusively intel too... and nowhere near as cooll.. :/

im curious to whther or not nvoatech will take the plunge and buy a massive bulk of the X6 cpus and a nicely priced 890GX of some kinda and make a load of great value leo platform pc's

in my eyes... think


phenom 2 x6 ('thuban' 6 cored cpu for everyone with turbo boost from low power solution to high performance solutions)
890GX (asrock are looking tasty in my eyes atm)
antec 300/ xigmatek midgard
xigmatek 600wpsu
4gb corsair DDR3
ATI 5770/5830
ODD/HDD to fit

imo this should be able to be done for £650-700 max and imo will be a great option for everyone

[JDowdall]

just looking at nova's selection now, I'd say it's more half an half in the balance! Just looking at the gaming pc's, of the 5, 4 have ATI graphics, 2 with 5770's!

Novatech do seem to have a good relationship with nvidia and intel, i can remember a time when they weren't selling any performance pre-builts with ATI cards in them, even though the ATI cards stomped all over the NVIDIA cards... such is marketing

[f12f12]

i have to say like if you select a bundle and click graphics to the side it will go to the nvidia selection. and nvidia always have a advert on there pages, ati non.

every one knows nvidia use more marketing then performance to sell there cards, if novatech didn't give them preference they would probably have the cards removed from them.

[Enaptt]

based on sales, knowledge and the fact the public know what they want, novatech arent going to have bundles that dont sell.

plus amd & ati are a ***** combination anyway.

[Mungo]

plus amd & ati are a ***** combination anyway.

:eek:
What an awful thing to say! What's wrong with em? Mine work beautifully, same company = epic win :p

:td:

[Enaptt]

ati just doesnt work with linux, FACT! :P

[Mungo]

ati just doesnt work with linux, FACT! :P

Why does that mean it doesn't work with AMD...? :huh:

[iGoD ReleNtLeS]

ati just doesnt work with linux, FACT! :P

WRONG! My 5770 works fine on Ubuntu :P

[Mr. Pineapple]

My old 4850 before I brought a 5770 worked with linux.

I do see NT going more Intel based aswell however not by much.

I know amd are good as I had an amd chip in one of my old desktops 4 years ago which worked great. However I would rather choose an I5 over amd

[brainiac361]

i would say that if there are more intel products on nova's website, it is simply appealing to a wider target audience.

if you go up to any old numpty on the street, i am sure more of them would have heard of Intel rather than AMD.

therefore, why not stock more intel products. it would be more profitable

[kpkpkp]

I just think someone at Novatech doesn't love AMD. :huh:

We love AMD and Intel, ATI and Nvidia but we sell what customers want.

Entry level PCs sell well with both AMD and Intel. A lot of people seem to prefer the Nvidia integrated graphics (the AMD 890 may change this but the boards cost twice the price) and AMD are dropping Hybrid Crossfire.

I think you need to go and look at our PCs again - we have just launched the Rayzor, Revolver and Recoiler - All AMD based systems.

We have also just moved away from AMD/ATI and Nvidia/Intel skus and started to switch things up a bit. It is clear that there are many people who prefer one CPU brand over a another or one GPU brand over another. These customers will stay loyal to their preferred brands regardless of performance criteria, some customers will not use a certain brand.

The new i5 and i7 CPUs are killer and AMD will admit behind closed doors that they have nothing to compare. That said as you move down the CPU stack AMD have product as good if not better than what Intel have to offer.

Look at how we spec our systems - we will always push the processor that offers the best performance/value ratio - Do you see any i3 notebook or PC systems - nope. There is a bundle to gauge customer adoption but that's it.

We love the big two CPU and VGA firms but we do not sell what they ask or want us to push - we sell what our customers request and want to buy.

Kp

[waba]

i would just get what has the best performance, no brand loyalty for me, haha! so whats kp is saying sounds right up my alley.

[I3R0K3N7FEET]

thats a good business practice tbh KP and it is also wise.. but i do think that there is still more value in the AMD platform that isnt being offered.. (edit actually i do have to commend nova for their pushing of quad cores and DX11)

something which i think IS an issue is that the retailers themselves have power over their customers.. this is the power of knowledge.. many customers just want their pc's to work, they hear names due to marketing but no real difference. people do not know whats what in such a turblulent world and nor do they want to get stuck in such a world. many customers rely on the knowledge of where theyre shopping from and will trust the word of the sales rep (this is enforcable by law), imo i think it i have to agree AMD arent really stacking up well against i5.. but i do think that with a little push nova could prolly get more value out of the AMD platform as well as raise customer awareness.. when the dragon platform was completed there was pre builds with the x4 940 and a 4870 4gb of ram, 790gx and the rest of the works on the market for less than £600... even now... that is an amazing price...

what i wanna know kp is.. are you have you and do you have any hands on with the X6's yet? and are nova going to be offering anything with them? ;)

edit<<

comparing the irush pro and the recoiler the recoiler is easily the better system imo.... the 890gx mobo is what does it.. maybe this should be highlighted more?

[kpkpkp]

what i wanna know kp is.. are you have you and do you have any hands on with the X6's yet? and are nova going to be offering anything with them? ;)

edit<<

comparing the irush pro and the recoiler the recoiler is easily the better system imo.... the 890gx mobo is what does it.. maybe this should be highlighted more?

Very interesting point you make there - so the customer (man in the street) does not know what tech to buy and it is our job to convince him/her. I agree with you which is why I think Novatech are as strong as it is as IMHO - we do give great unbiased advice. At the same time you say we should make a bigger deal of the 890 chipset.

The issue is for the customer you refer to it is hard enough taking them through the CPU/GPU combination and explaining the points of relevance - to try and explain chipset at the same time you would just confuse them.

To the more educated buyer, they know what 890 means but to be honest by the time you get what it means and what it offers you are probably that clued up you will build your own rig.

I spend a lot of time writing sales copy to try and educate the customer about who a system is aimed at, why a feature has been highlighted and what benefit that feature gives to the end user. Keeping it detailed without being complicated is very tricky but I think we do a good job - the issue is I have no idea if they read it. I think some do as they will often ask in the store about something in the website copy but I totally agree it is down to the retailers (people that talk to the end user) to educate the public.

6 core AMD, yes I have one, **** it is fast, it will offer stellar value for money and yes we will 100% be offering a system - but all of this is useless if the application coders as ****** slow to utilise the tech as they were with quad cores.

You are spot on ref the Recoiler - in terms of performance vs value it murders the Intel equivalent.

Do I sound like an Intel/Nvidia fanboy now System7 ;)

Kp

[I3R0K3N7FEET]

interesting news there kp :P

i think that it will be a surprise to many people as most people are expecting a revamped istanbul but what people dont realise that while istanbul is the reference design, thuban is a totally redesigned chip as istanbul has loads of useless things in it which are for server only purposes.. take them out and add in things in which increase performce to put it simply... and the end results are all still a mystery, which is great that AMD have kept such a tight lid on it :)

fwiw several engines afaik including the cryengine3, unreal engine 3, the unigine engine etc are all future proof when concerning multi cored cpus.. though as you say.. and a point that has been mentioned by several people,, most of the software we have today is poorly coded due to faster cpu's allowing developers to become lazier in their coding

[waba]

so is amd devloping an equivalent to the i7s now? and where do you get your info from kp, i.e. all the tests on the sytems etc. do novatech carry them out, or do you use reviews/tests done by other people o the internet? or the official results from tests?

[f12f12]

so is amd devloping an equivalent to the i7s now? and where do you get your info from kp, i.e. all the tests on the sytems etc. do novatech carry them out, or do you use reviews/tests done by other people o the internet? or the official results from tests?

you could look at it as an equivalent but really its some thing of the same level. it has 6 real cores rather than the i7's 4 real cores and 4 hyper threaded cores. and then amd are meant to be making an equivalent to hyper threading

and i believe novatech make the systems and test them there self, if they can get there hands on it.

[system7]

On close inspection, the undersold £740 AMD 965 based Recoiler looks a very nice model. I'm not sure about the exact 600W power supply fitted, but 890GX chipset and CrossfireX ability is a big selling-point that should be mentioned IMO.
http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/pc/range/recoiler.html

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/874/gamingevolvedlogolarge.png (http://img16.imageshack.us/i/gamingevolvedlogolarge.png/)

The £700 Intel i5 750 iRush Pro with 750W PSU is far less flexible but fine for people who want a machine that works out of the box, but this takes some deep delving to uncover.
http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/pc/range/irushpro.html

I suppose the difficulty for you Nova blurb-writers is to satisfy the Average Joe, and the informed buyer at the same time. We've discussed this before. But I really doubt whether either knows what "Reloading your digital experience" is. :D

[waba]

i would fall under thwe average joe section system! I know this would be a stupidly general questionm, but do amd/ati mix well with intel/nviea? for example, i have a 4770 and athlon X2, whilst the motherboard is an Nvidea chipset (i think....) generally a bad idea to do that?

[system7]

i would fall under thwe average joe section system! I know this would be a stupidly general questionm, but do amd/ati mix well with intel/nviea? for example, i have a 4770 and athlon X2, whilst the motherboard is an Nvidea chipset (i think....) generally a bad idea to do that?
Puts on Tech hat...You should have no issues with a ATI HD4770 and an NVidia chipset aside from the fact that CrossfireX is not supported on NVidia SLI boards. However, many, perhaps the majority of NVidia chipsets, have had boot/initialisation issues with the new HD5xxx series cards requiring a bios update. Asus have done bios updates, but people with boards like Foxconn have run into problems. This may be why Nova have changed their NVidia MCP61 bundles from Foxconn to Gigabyte manufacture.

Splendid new magazine from Nova this month called "Know How" dropped through my door.

Marvellous articles on how to build your own Intel H55 PC, and Intel i3-i7 processors in conjunction with Channel Partner Intel.
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/3100/novamagazine.jpg (http://img696.imageshack.us/i/novamagazine.jpg/)

Also a Future Tech look at NVidia 3D technology AND a NVidia competition:
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6513/nvidia3d.jpg (http://img180.imageshack.us/i/nvidia3d.jpg/)

I am sure that the next issue will be jam-packed with AMD stuff...:rolleye:

[I3R0K3N7FEET]

maybe they should note that ati now are supporting 3D stereoscopic vision in eyefinity with a simple driver update.. i think its out with the next CCC...

[system7]

maybe they should note that ati now are supporting 3D stereoscopic vision in eyefinity with a simple driver update.. i think its out with the next CCC...

Rather dull stuff, surely? :rolleye:

DX11 graphics, CrossfireX and AMD Black Editions float my boat rather more. :cool:

[kpkpkp]

Puts on Tech hat...You should have no issues with a ATI HD4770 and an NVidia chipset aside from the fact that CrossfireX is not supported on NVidia SLI boards. However, many, perhaps the majority of NVidia chipsets, have had boot/initialisation issues with the new HD5xxx series cards requiring a bios update. Asus have done bios updates, but people with boards like Foxconn have run into problems. This may be why Nova have changed their NVidia MCP61 bundles from Foxconn to Gigabyte manufacture.

Splendid new magazine from Nova this month called "Know How" dropped through my door.

Marvellous articles on how to build your own Intel H55 PC, and Intel i3-i7 processors in conjunction with Channel Partner Intel.
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/3100/novamagazine.jpg (http://img696.imageshack.us/i/novamagazine.jpg/)

Also a Future Tech look at NVidia 3D technology AND a NVidia competition:
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6513/nvidia3d.jpg (http://img180.imageshack.us/i/nvidia3d.jpg/)

I am sure that the next issue will be jam-packed with AMD stuff...:rolleye:


This issue would have been packed with AMD stuff but we have to sign an NDA with our big technology partners that means we cannot talk about their tech before launch unless they say so. I really wanted to do a 6 core head to head AMD vs Intel - but we cannot comment on the AMD part. Yet!!!!!

As soon as we can, we will.

Kp

[system7]

The new magazine is GREAT, KP! You are all to be congratulated. :thumbs:

http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/1711/knowhow.jpg (http://img532.imageshack.us/i/knowhow.jpg/)

Looking forward to the next one. :cool:

[A Ginger Sheep]

how do you register to get this magazine anyhow?

[kpkpkp]

Spend money with us :D

It goes out to customers - TBH there are certain criteria that the mailing selector program uses in a customers profile. You can pop into a store and pick one up for free.

Kp

[Vigoro]

I didn't get one, i feel upset now :(

[Mungo]

I did :D

Had a nice time perusing it, looking forward to this new store front :)

Nice to have an external review, as well as updates about the shop too

[A Ginger Sheep]

Spend money with us :D

ive spent over £800 in the last 6 months! must be quite a high criteria you have to reach :D respect to steve for meeting it :thumbs:

[I3R0K3N7FEET]

Rather dull stuff, surely? :rolleye:

DX11 graphics, CrossfireX and AMD Black Editions float my boat rather more. :cool:

its all added value really. :P

[snakedoc]

Erm, where's my magazine? I have spent £1000's at Nova!

[cje]

I get quite a few of these magazines for some reason. Though, my last single bill was over £2k, lol.

I am thinking of buying a netbook from novatech now, just for a laugh. I don't need it, but I want.

[system7]

Thought I'd revive this thread since I still don't see my dream AMD/ATI PC Gamer represented anywhere in Novatech's PC range. :)

Let's be clear, affordable Intel P55/H55 chipset is severely knackered or non-existent in 2X PCIE X8 crossfire bandwidth with SATA 3 and USB 3. :rolleye:

Whereas AMD Asrock 870 Extreme3 motherboard is an ideal affordable crossfire solution.

Our splendid Unigine 2.0 forum bench has shown that the best graphics solution in DX11 is arguably ATI 2X HD 5750. This is because you get two tessellators and the price is right because of yield issues on the bigger chips.

Processor wise, the uninformed always go for the fastest chip, but actually a cheaper chip, possibly overclocked, represents better value and a suitable match. This is the Athlon II X4 635 or conceivably a Phenom II X4 955BE.

Why mess about with power supplies. Give it an OCZ 700W. :cool:

Not a fanboy here, just looking for the value! :D

[Amy]

oh you wear me down!!

So you would like a :

AMD 635
2 x 5750
affordable xfire board
ocz700w psu....

let me see what i can do tomorrow yea?

[aaron333]

oh you wear me down!!

So you would like a :

AMD 635
2 x 5750
affordable xfire board
ocz700w psu....

let me see what i can do tomorrow yea?

I'd say that would make a cracking bundle. Maybe a OCZ 600W instead though? Deffo an Antec 300 :D

[system7]

AMD 635
2 x 5750
affordable xfire board
ocz700w psu....
A very positive respose, Amy! :thumbs:

As a barebones without graphics it would definately appeal. :cool:

Time to dump those woeful NVidia boards in favour of Asrock 870 Extreme3. :D

Probably sell like a dog, because most folks know nothing about gaming, but it is doing the right thing. Which helps us sleep at night. ;)

[Amy]

Probably sell like a dog, because most folks know nothing about gaming

ah you know so well what motivates me into listing and selling a PC :rolleye:

[system7]

ah you know so well what motivates me in listing and selling a PC :rolleye:

This is it. A lot of people want cheap PCs. That is reasonable, and a big part of the market. :thumbs:

But I don't see why that contradicts selling GREAT PCs too. :D

I've often thought the answer is to offer an enthusiast range too. You know, LED fans in Red and Green depending on your preference, overclocking ability, big power supplies and cooling and upgradeability.

I could be wrong. After all, Novatech seem to know what they are doing. :cool:

[cje]

This is it. A lot of people want cheap PCs. That is reasonable, and a big part of the market. :thumbs:

But I don't see why that contradicts selling GREAT PCs too. :D

I've often thought the answer is to offer an enthusiast range too. You know, LED fans in Red and Green depending on your preference, overclocking ability, big power supplies and cooling and upgradeability.

I could be wrong. After all, Novatech seem to know what they are doing. :cool:

To be honest, though I would love to see such a range, I think if a crazy like me wants an enthusiast pc, then they aren't going to let someone else spec it. This is my own opinion though, but if the buyer is an enthusiast, and wants his pc just so, with red and green fans etc, then they will pay the required £50 for Nova to custom build one especially for them non?

Having said this though (oh I do like to contradict myself a lot), I did see that Nova do have some enthusiast level barebones going from time to time, such as the i9 deal not so long ago, and the i7 980x was it in the HUGE Lian-Li with the Corsair H50? But that was let down by some slow 1066mhz ram, and only 6gb of it.

Another thing I would like to see Novatech do some media centre pc's. There is a growing market here, and I feel Nova aren't jumping in there. Or is it that the market is already saturated with pre-built systems as the likes of Asus etc?

But back to Steve's point of them selling like dogs. I can attest to how my mother reacted when she found out my recently bought new pc for the family was an AMD based system. She doesn't know a lot about computers, but from what she had heard (god know where) that AMD was massively inferior to intel, and that Intel is the king.

Same goes to my brother, when his 8800GTX died in his old Dell XPS 710 system he wanted a GTX 275 to replace it. Through **** and high water he wanted a GTX 275 (because it was cool). He scoffed at me when I mentioned an ATI card. Until I cooled him down, showed him some benchmarks, showed him that a 5850 not only outperformed the 275, but also drew a lot less power from the generic Dell BTX psu (which I had my doubts on). He now has a 5850 and his old pc has got some gaming life left yet!

What I'm trying to say is, people "not in the know" go with what they see and hear on tv and from friends. And Intel/Nvidia are currently leading there. I was a nvidia devotee until I came to these forums, and learned a bit more. I was a nvidia devotee because I didn't know any better, and basically went with marketing (which I learnt you shouldn't do :p)

[system7]

The budget prebuilt market is intensely price competitive and the customers not very savvy. But AMD Athlon II X4 635 systems are currently winning the value stakes and magazine editor's choice stickers, which people do notice. :)

A typical board that the market leaders are fitting is the stripped down Asus M4A78LT-M LE:
http://uk.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=exJL00uovTJaDqxR

Personally, I would say this Asus M4A78LT-M @£55 is more satisfying in the long run:
http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/prods/Components/Motherboards/AMDAM3AMDChipsetMotherboards/Asus/M4A78LT-M.html

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6696/m4a78ltm.jpg (http://img180.imageshack.us/i/m4a78ltm.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

It adds beefier 4+1 power regulators for new 1090T X6 processor support, 4 RAM slots and HDMI and optical sound output to an already very full feature set which includes ACC core-unlocking and RAID and Express Gate. Should do 1080P HTPC very well, though I'd like to test that because 785G and 880G chipsets have better graphics. For sure it runs rings round the dated and slow NVidia MCP61P chipset, and is a board that any enthusiast on a budget would enjoy.

Would Joe Average pay the extra for such good components? Perhaps not, but an enthusiast would. Just like with AMD 890GX crossfire gaming motherboards and superior gaming-grade power supplies, IMO it's important to explain that these are above-average systems. :cool:

[Martini1991]

I'd love for AMD to be more aggressive in getting there products out.

[system7]

I don't think I have ever known Novatech offer such a woeful range of AMD PCs! Not a single Athlon II X4 or Phenom II system...:rolleye:

http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/pc/home/

It's seriously embarrassing. I see Athlon 64 3800+ that must have come in a second hand job lot, a 4850B and 9350E Phenom I that must be in some job lot of obsolete processors.

This stuff was junk two years ago! Never mind the ancient HT 1.0 NVidia MCP61P chipsets. Rubbish! :rant:

[f12f12]

oh system7 you tell them again and again but they don't listen. it is bad but what can you do? i know somewhere that activly encoruage feed back and where they listen to you. but hey just the other side of the fence.

[nightmare99]

Not a single Athlon II X4 or Phenom II system...

http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/pc/range/renegade.html
http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/pc/range/thebeast.html

These are Phenon II systems? Or do you mean a more value orientated Phenom II quad core system?

[system7]

Strangely, Novatech have discontinued an AMD PC I quite like. The Rayzor:


# AMD Quad Core X4 630
# 2GB DDR3 1333Mhz...or maybe 2X 2GB. LOL
# 500GB 3.5" 7200rpm SATA Hard Drive
# ATX Midi Tower Case With 350W PSU
# NVIDIA GeForce GT 240 1GB
# Asus M4A785TD-V EVO AMD 785G (Socket AM3) PCI-Express DDR3

Last one in the sale at £405, knocked down from £490. :thumbs:
http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/prods/PCs/Novatech/PC-1393.html

[f12f12]

well first thing wrong with the rayzor... it isnt called iRayzor

:P

[system7]

well first thing wrong with the rayzor... it isnt called iRayzor

:P


I expect iNtel paid Novatech a bundle of used fivers to ditch it...we know what they are like... :D

[nightmare99]

I expect iNtel paid Novatech a bundle of used fivers to ditch it...we know what they are like...

It is something like 4% of product purchases but can only be claimed for certain marketing & activities, as far as I am aware you cannot claim for withdrawing a competitors product. I guess that system just was not a great seller.

[system7]

Thing is mate, we all want to see Novatech do well. Very nice company to deal with. :)

I just hate to see them punching below their weight. Asrock make an AMD crossfire motherboard, the 870 Extreme3 which has more features than any H55 or P55 offering at the £80 price. In fact I'd say H55 is useless and P55 overpriced for full crossfire boards.
http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/prods/Components/Motherboards/AMDAM3AMDChipsetMotherboards/Asrock/90-MXGFA0-A0UAYZ.html

AMD offer the Quad Core Athlon II X4 635 at below £80. Intel have nothing to match it since hyperthreading duals like i3 530 really don't hack it:
http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/prods/Components/Processors/AMDAthlonX2AndX4/AMD/ADX635WFGMBOX.html

ATI graphics cards are all fully DX11, and the HD 5670, for instance, is a very decent performer, way better than a GT 240 at a mere £53:
http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/prods/Components/Graphics-ATI/ATIHD5600Series/Novatech/NOV-5670.html

You just can't ignore value like that! :cool:

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/874/gamingevolvedlogolarge.png

[system7]

It is something like 4% of product purchases but can only be claimed for certain marketing & activities, as far as I am aware you cannot claim for withdrawing a competitors product. I guess that system just was not a great seller.
This is a complex issue, but Intel have been caught out in the past doing some very shady things to squash good AMD products. In fact they have worked hard at giving Nvidia a hard time with products like Atom processors too, including limiting PCIE bus speed.

Cue Charlie Demerjian on Intel's current settlement with the FTC on some eye-opening practices like crippling Intel compilers with AMD processors and of course, rebates. I have to admit I had to study this hard to see where the sting is! :rolleye:

Sales and Rebates

In part IV, the topic is sales tactics, and was mostly covered by the previous AMD agreement. Intel merrily pointed out that they didn't mind abiding by the agreements because they never did the alleged behaviors in the first place. Touché.

The behaviors that are now officially forbidden, again, are the normal exclusivity, rebates, discounts, and other things that are used to exclude competitors. This time around, punishing OEMs and customers who stray from the fold is also frowned upon. There are some gems here though.

The first one is IV. A. 7. where Intel is forbidden from making discounts in the way that most people think is obvious. Intel seems to only be allowed to give discounts when a certain sales level is reached. If they give discounts on orders of more than 50K CPUs a year, then another break at 100K, and another at 150K, making those levels retroactive is not really allowed any more.

Under IV. A. 7., Intel for example must price CPUs 1-49,999 at one price, and then give the discounts on CPUs 50,000-99,999, and another break on CPUs 100,000-149,999. What they can't do is retroactively give the OEM the same price the first 49,999 CPUs that they get on the others.

While this may seem petty and pointless, it prevents Intel from doing things like offering an OEM an extra 10K CPUs and discounting the entire month's purchase enough to make those added chips 'free'. Several people tell SemiAccurate that Intel would see that AMD would account for 10% of an OEM's sales, and offer that OEM enough steeply discounted CPUs to make it unnecessary to buy any AMD products.

The discounts would be retroactive, so Intel could price those new CPUs at basically zero, and amortize it over the other 90% of sales. If the first 90% are sold at $100 per CPU, an Intel sales rep comes in and says, we will discount all of the month's purchases by 10% if you just reach a sales level that is 10% more, you would have to be an idiot to say no.

If an OEM moves 100K computers a month, 90K Intel units at $100 per CPU costs them $9M. If AMD comes in and offers their CPUs for $50 each for the last 10%, that is $500K for those CPUs, and a total cost of $9.5M for the OEM. Fair enough.

In comes Intel and offers the OEM an additional 10K CPUs at $90 each, more than AMD is charging, and a 10% discount on the list price. That 10% discount extends to the other 90% of the customer's purchases, so an OEM ends up with 100K CPUs for $9M. Magic. Intel effectively locks AMD out, and keeps ASPs up to almost twice what AMD can get.

Intel representatives will look you in the eye and say that they sold those 10K CPUs to the OEM at $90 each, which they technically did. Effectively though, they gave the OEM 10K CPUs to exclude AMD. This may be sleazy but it is not illegal. In any case, that tactic is now forbidden.
http://www.semiaccurate.com/2010/08/05/ftc-holds-intels-feet-fire/

[nightmare99]

Yes and I am sure AMD, you or I would do the same is we were in Intel's position.

[I3R0K3N7FEET]

imo anti competitive behaviour affects the customers and the market and isnt good for anyone.. would i do that? no.. competitiion is the key to everything in this market..

glad it is outlawed,

regardless about position and speculation intel did this.. amd didnt. the market has suffered for it.

[system7]

Yes and I am sure AMD, you or I would do the same is we were in Intel's position.
In fact, I've seen no evidence that AMD pull any dirty tricks at all. They have always worked with industry standards and have been frustrated when, for instance, Microsoft witheld support for features like DX10 tessellation which have been hardware incorporated by ATI since the HD2xxx cards as a sop to NVidia who couldn't get it working. :)

When I see a bench that says "Nvidia TWIMTBP" and "Runs great on Intel Quad" I do smell a rat. The fact is that 10% difference in a bench hugely affects buying decision, and when companies give cash and assistance to game and benching companies there must be a payoff for them. :rant:

Sysmark in this Anandtech i3 530 review is now revealed to be compiled on a Intel compiler that is biased towards Intel products. :rolleye:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2901/7


Compilers and Dirty Tricks

Part VII is all about compilers, and it lays into Intel for all the things they have been denying but everyone knows they do. It basically makes some Intel products come with a warning label that makes European cigarette packs look tame. Additionally, it creates a fund to allow people duped by Intel's compiler numbers to recompile their software at Intel's expense.

Much of this was covered in the AMD settlement, but the solution is simple, Intel can do what they want with their compilers, but they must prominently state that the compiler may not be optimized for any other manufacturer's CPU. Intel has to tell all it's compiler customers this, and can not represent or imply that the their compilers are necessarily fair to others. You have to wonder why this would be called out so specifically.

No, actually, you don't. The backstory, which Intel flatly denies, is that Intel compilers go out of their way to deoptimize code on non-Intel CPUs. They say it was done because Intel can't test all their competitors products on their compilers, but somehow every other compiler maker out there seems to manage such testing.

The way this was done in the past explicitly violates Intel's own methodology for determining CPU functionality. Strangely enough, this was only detrimental to code run on other manufacturer's CPUs. As we said, Intel denies this, but a couple of minutes with a hex editor to change a statement similar to "If Intel CPU, then X" to, "If not Intel CPU, then X" shows startling performance differences. But no crashes. Shock.

Why this is problematic is that Intel would put it's compilers out there, and get software used in prominent benchmarks to compile with it. Then the 'fair' industry consortium benchmark is immediately biased against AMD and Via. Intel plays innocent and looks all pouty when accused. Sadly, a lot of enterprise customers were not aware of this inbuilt bias, and that seems to have been Intel's intention.

Not only do the compilers need a big warning label now, but the FTC and the settlement call out several benchmarks for being complicit. In Section VII, they make Intel put a warning label that in part calls out SYSmark, MobileMark, and others. It is a pretty stunning disclosure of how Intel gamed the system for years, while hamstringing AMD, Via, Transmeta and others.

"Software and workloads used in performance tests may have been optimized for performance only on Intel microprocessors. Performance tests, such as SYSmark and MobileMark, are measured using specific computer systems, components, software, operations, and functions. Any change to any of those factors may cause the results to vary. You should consult other information and performance tests to assist you in fully evaluation your contemplated purchase, including the performance of that product when combined with other products." Scary stuff, eh kids?

To make matters worse yet, part VIII. states that Intel has to make a fund that pays compiler customers expenses in recompiling their wares with something else. If you want to to apply for some of the $10 million "Intel Compiler Reimbursement Program", you too can be paid to redo your code. If you used the Intel compiler in the past. Some restrictions may apply. See Intel's Compiler Reimbursement Program fine print for further details.

It is a shame that Intel has to be tarred and feathered, then paraded through town in stockades like this. Warning labels, paying people to recompile, and explicit orders to be honest? Other than a mound of evidence and simple tests to prove that Intel was far from fair in their protestations, what did they do to deserve this? These 'unfair' redresses fix a problem that 'wasn't there', and will level the playing field a lot.
http://www.semiaccurate.com/2010/08/06/more-intel-dirt-cleaned-ftc/

[nightmare99]

In fact, I've seen no evidence that AMD pull any dirty tricks at all. They have always worked with industry standards and have been frustrated

When I see a bench that says "Nvidia TWIMTBP" and "Runs great on Intel Quad" I do smell a rat. The fact is that 10% difference in a bench hugely affects buying decision, and when companies give cash and assistance to game and benching companies there must be a payoff for them. :rant:

Yes am sure AMD are clean but they have never been in the position of power Intel have, I was trying to say if they were in Intel's position they would do the same (which they never have and to be honest probably never will be).

With regards to companies giving cash and assistance to games developers of course there will be a payoff for them they are not doing it out of the goodness of thier hearts they are runnig a business. To be honest I have no problem with the TWIMTBP program I just wish AMD got thier skates on and ramped up thier own developer relations program.


I may come accross as Intel/nvidia biassed but I have no problem with AMD/ATI competition, the problem is AMD are nowhere near as supportive to smaller and mid-sized builders as Intel. Thier partner program is a bit of a joke to be honest and as such they suffer for it.

[system7]

I may come accross as Intel/nvidia biassed but I have no problem with AMD/ATI competition, the problem is AMD are nowhere near as supportive to smaller and mid-sized builders as Intel. Thier partner program is a bit of a joke to be honest and as such they suffer for it.
My own take on this is that buying decisions should be based on real value and openness. I don't think much of a Taxi company that sneaks round at night letting its competitors tyres down, which is as close an analogy as I can find here. :eek:

And you benefit more than you realise from AMD/ATI's current improved strength while grappling with some fearsome financial issues. Prices and features for CPUs and Graphics and motherboards are better than ever due to some very real competition, which is what interests us buyers in the end. :)

[nightmare99]

My own take on this is that buying decisions should be based on real value and openness.

Yes in an ideal world they should be but very rarely are.


And you benefit more than you realise from AMD/ATI's current improved strength while grappling with some fearsome financial issues. Prices and features for CPUs and Graphics and motherboards are better than ever due to some very real competition, which is what interests us buyers in the end. :)

I am aware of the current capabilities of the product lineups from both AMD and ATI, infact I have no fear for ATI they have taken full advantage of nvidia's plight recently. AMD still have a lot of work to do I feel they cannot just remain competative but have to offer far better performance at the same price points as Intel and actually push that advantage home through tight marketing and partner support. With regard to AMD's mobile lineup I almost feel embarrased for them even though they should have a great advantage here with thier supperior integrated graphics they have such little market share and few design wins.

I would consider you as an informed buyer you will seek out and reserach the best price/performance for your usage, most average buyers will rely on marketing and advice from sales people or buy whatever is on the shelf.

[SilverKnight]

It's AMD's fault for giving their processors dumb names, it's not obvious to see that intel have slowly been pushing them out of the market.

[A Ginger Sheep]

It's AMD's fault for giving their processors dumb names, it's not obvious to see that intel have slowly been pushing them out of the market.

:huh:

and why the dead thread resurrection with a pointless post :rant:

[jonbanjo]

:huh:

and why the dead thread resurrection with a pointless post :rant:

You are probably right there but to pick on the "pointless point"... is "Phenon" any dumber than Intel's highly successful "Pentium" and what does i7 mean? I'm far from clear why one "dumb name" should be more popular than another/

---
On the availability score, I did recently change my usual loyalty, going with Intel for the mini-Itx - I'm sure Amd must offer something but just about everywhere I looked only offered Intel - oh and there were a couple of VIA's around.

---
Was interested to read a point made, I think by System7 earlier concerning benchmarking. Some time ago, the a calculate PI thread cropped up and as I could not run it, I had a play with compiling a Linux version with the GNU gcc compiler.

While I know nothing really about benchmarking or compiler optimisations it was quite easy to see that by using different flags for the compiler, I could make the program faster or slower. It wasn't hard to see that a processor manufacturer could take an unfair advantage with this sort of thing.

[jonbanjo]

You are probably right there but to pick on the "pointless point"... is "Phenon" any dumber than Intel's highly successful "Pentium" and what does i7 mean? I'm far from clear why one "dumb name" should be more popular than another/

Just to get on one of my own high horses from there, they are of course all marketing terms, things most (count me in) can at times be sold thinking we are wise when we may really know little.

Am I alone in thinking that it can be a little sad that a billion in advertising and a marketing "spin doctor" might be worth more than a guy who comes up with a brilliant design? Or in one sense that footballers have agents, pop groups managers, etc. All (while I'm sure they do ease some burdens) in one sense leaches on the talent but with the ability to sell?

[I3R0K3N7FEET]

with the right marketing ploy someone could sell you your own feaces....