Linux PCs!

[TheJoe]

Think of it Nova:
No OEM licenses, deals or extra costs or stupid stickers - just download a Linux ISO and install it on machines in OEM mode (Ubuntu)!

Plenty of companies are now selling Linux PCs, System76 is even a company dedicated to selling Ubuntu CDs and Dell have a (unnecessary) "partnership" with Canonical.

What WOULD be nice is if said PCs had keyboards with the logo on the Super key replaced with Tux or the Circle of Friends ;) But that's probably unlikely, but easy to do.

Give it some thought, it would not only save you money and time but it would save your customers £100!

[jonbanjo]

I would applaud the idea and would (as we all do) welcome other Linux users.

That said, the first thing I'd do with the PC is remove Ubuntu and replace it with (and yes I do know there is that MS/Novel business so maybe not push too hard but...) OpenSuse running KDE. I'm not a particular Gnome fan (so if Ubuntu, I'd be looking Kubuntu) and (OK Ubuntu does tend to install easily without asking the user harder questions) am a fan of YAST and (although some say bloated, too much, etc.) and the admin interface it provides.

I guess what I'm trying to ask here is how does a co market a (OK wonderful) Linux box AND have its users aware that there are so many different flavours, each appealing to different users? It (at least to me) is a vast world of choices.

[TheJoe]

Yes I did mean that there could be a host of PCs, but currently for new users Ubuntu is just right, so if there were, so when ordering as you would choose your Windows edition you would choose your Linux flavour.

If Ubuntu is the weapon of choice here I'd say to allow a user to choose their flavour - Kubuntu, Edu...

[TheJoe]

Bump - heh heh heh heh

[codemonkey]

Supplying machines with Linux is an option we have looked at in the past... and indeed still are investigating in regard to our laptop ranges.

The difficulty comes in hardware support. There just aren't that many manufacturers who provide driver support for the masses and masses of hardware available. As such - in the case of our laptop ranges - we have to work with a company like Canonical who can then ensure that future iterations of their flavour of Linux will work with our hardware. This also means that each time we release a new PC or laptop that it then has to go off to Canonical (or the like) for them to approve all over again).

As much as we would love to release our systems with Linux (and we are still trying) it's not quite as straight forward as most people would think. But please bear with us, be patient; and you never know your luck, We might just surprise ya ;)

[Baggpuss]

Tbh if people want linux couldnt they just get a system without an os and run an ubuntu cd or something?

[codemonkey]

Tbh if people want linux couldnt they just get a system without an os and run an ubuntu cd or something?

Most definately! We just can't guarantee that all of the hardware will have full support

[Vic]

The difficulty comes in hardware support. There just aren't that many manufacturers who provide driver support for the masses and masses of hardware available.

Well - you might be surprised :-)

Quite a bit of the hardware around *is* supported - the difficulty is in finding out what's in a particular setup before you get it home...

If you guys are interested, I'm sure there's some volunteer help available locally to enumerate kit & work out what is/isn't supported. Drop me a mail off-line if this interests you...


As much as we would love to release our systems with Linux (and we are still trying) it's not quite as straight forward as most people would think. But please bear with us, be patient; and you never know your luck, We might just surprise ya ;)

That's encouraging - I'm very pleased to hear it!

Vic.

[jonbanjo]

Tbh if people want linux couldnt they just get a system without an os and run an ubuntu cd or something?

As others have commented, there can be hardware issues. I'll suggest I could split this 2 ways.

a) There is hardware that simply is not supported. Not much one can do about that...

b) There is hardware that demands an extra step and perhaps a bit of research to get working. Sometimes this can be as simple as clicking a link on a page (eg. one method to get nVidias own drivers on OpenSuse is a "one click install") or adding an additional software repository and installing from that.

I think even these simple steps can be off putting for potential Linux users and I feel sure that when we reach the point that the result of an hrs searching, then asking in a (in my experience, very helpful) support forum as you are still stuck to find you need to compile something its the end of the line for quite a few.

It would be so nice just to have something either pre-installed or that you know will just work.

--
I'm biased of course (and am usually willing to spend a few hrs finding out how to do something if I need to) but I think it's a great OS very capable of being (I'll pick on some of our own uses) a general WP/Speadsheet/Office/Browsing/Email Desktop to for example a dedicated Web or database server.

To me, it is a great shame these initial installation hurdles can exist.

[codemonkey]

Well - you might be surprised :-)

Actually I wouldnt as I have spent over 10 years using Linux / UNIX on all manner of hardware from PC's to laptops to RS6Ks, as well as some big iron when at IBM / AT&T.

Yes you can usually find the drivers that will work if your willing to spend hours digging around, or are willing to compile them yourself. But as a PC retailer catering to all parts of the market we have to ensure the drivers and support are up to snuff.

But things are getting better all the time, and in a lot of cases Linux will work straight out of the box first time with no difficult configuration. Our problems lies in the 10% of the time (usually with laptops) where the ACPI features cause Ubuntu to lock on install, or you just cant find a driver for the webcam, or the sound card, etc etc.

EDIT: Something I just remembered as well... if you want to supply a system saying something likes "Supports Ubuntu" with all of their logos etc then all of your hardware actually has to have passed the certification process by Canonical to be able to advertise it as such. This can be time consuming (and expensive)

[Vic]

Yes you can usually find the drivers that will work if your willing to spend hours digging around, or are willing to compile them yourself.

No - that might have been true 5+ years ago, but these days, most stuff works out of the box.

There are some difficulties - e.g. getting the fancy sound working on one of my laptops - but these are usually down to manufacturers ewither mis-iomplementing a standard, or just failing to tell anyone whichone they've used. This doesn't involve building new drivers - just setting up the machine so the OS know what's what.

And this is where a little up-front knowledge (i.e. allowing people access to the kit) would mean that such things *could* be supported out of the box.

The days of recompiling your own kernel are a very long way behind for most people...


But as a PC retailer catering to all parts of the market we have to ensure the drivers and support are up to snuff.

Absolutely. Which is why I suggested using local volunteer groups to work out which bits are trivial to support, and which bits will take a little work.


But things are getting better all the time, and in a lot of cases Linux will work straight out of the box first time with no difficult configuration. Our problems lies in the 10% of the time (usually with laptops) where the ACPI features cause Ubuntu to lock on install, or you just cant find a driver for the webcam, or the sound card, etc etc.

So if you know which ones those are, you can take the decisions on whether it's worth sorting out the config, or just not supplying that unit with Linux. That means knowing beforehand what does and does not need any effort - and, in the spirit of Free software - that's where you use the work other people do / have done.


EDIT: Something I just remembered as well... if you want to supply a system saying something likes "Supports Ubuntu" with all of their logos etc then all of your hardware actually has to have passed the certification process by Canonical to be able to advertise it as such. This can be time consuming (and expensive)

So don't do that. Doesn't take long to take the badges off something...

Vic.

[jonbanjo]

The days of recompiling your own kernel are a very long way behind for most people...

Maybe this is a reasonable perspective?

I think the only current compile I have is not for the computers themselves but for a Xerox 6110N printer.

Resources to help are there, eg. http://www.linuxfoundation.org/en/OpenPrinting
To search their database and say come up with foo2qpdl is easy as is copy pasting the instructions from their page (http://foo2qpdl.rkkda.com/) into your terminal program.

There is nothing frightening there but although pretty much a newbie (I didn't really get going until OpenSuse 9.2), for some things, a) I've now an idea where to look and b) I had at least used CP/M and DOS in the past so the "command line" instead of a mouse click was sort of familiar.

I hope I'm not being patronising here but I think these things can seem very daunting at first to some.

[codemonkey]

No - that might have been true 5+ years ago, but these days, most stuff works out of the box.

There are some difficulties - e.g. getting the fancy sound working on one of my laptops - but these are usually down to manufacturers ewither mis-iomplementing a standard, or just failing to tell anyone whichone they've used. This doesn't involve building new drivers - just setting up the machine so the OS know what's what.


As we are supplying machines to consumers and saying "This machine works with <some flavour of linux>" absolutely everything has to work, including the "fancy sound" otherwise we will get in trouble with trading standards, or end up having to give refunds as the unit is not as advertised. And unfortunately a high percentage of our laptop chassis' do not work straight out of the box. In most cases down to an ACPI issue which stops the Ubuntu installer... Fedora struggled to.



And this is where a little up-front knowledge (i.e. allowing people access to the kit) would mean that such things *could* be supported out of the box.


In a lot of cases we are under strict gag orders from suppliers or manufacturers not to discuss new kit, new chassis' etc until they are released to the general public. As such this is impossible.


The days of recompiling your own kernel are a very long way behind for most people...


Depending on what hardware your using... I literally had a machine the other day where the only way to get the SATA RAID controller working was to recompile my kernel to include a new module... although admittedly I could have just used modprobe but I'm a stickler :mrgreen:



Absolutely. Which is why I suggested using local volunteer groups to work out which bits are trivial to support, and which bits will take a little work.

So if you know which ones those are, you can take the decisions on whether it's worth sorting out the config, or just not supplying that unit with Linux. That means knowing beforehand what does and does not need any effort - and, in the spirit of Free software - that's where you use the work other people do / have done.


Those pesky gag orders on the hardware again :mrgreen:



So don't do that. Doesn't take long to take the badges off something...


You misunderstood me there... I don't mean linux badges physically on our machines, but if we want to say this machine is "Ubuntu Compatible" then we have to go through their certification process or people like Canonical come after us with their lawyers, or we have customers complaining to Trading Standards that what we sold and advertised is not fit for purpose.

Believe me I would love nothing more than to supply Linux with all of our systems, and be able to offer support and advice to all of our customers who would like to give it a try. Unfortunately at the moment it just isn't possible due to all of the reasons mentioned above and many many more not mentioned here.

[Vic]

As we are supplying machines to consumers and saying "This machine works with <some flavour of linux>" absolutely everything has to work, including the "fancy sound" otherwise we will get in trouble with trading standards, or end up having to give refunds as the unit is not as advertised. And unfortunately a high percentage of our laptop chassis' do not work straight out of the box. In most cases down to an ACPI issue which stops the Ubuntu installer... Fedora struggled to.

Yes, I'm well aware of the issues.

What I'm suggesting is that the solutions to such problems could be yours at no outlay, since the kit *does* work with the drivers supplied. All you need is for someone to find out what configuration needs to be set - and such effort is probably available to you at zero cost, as long as you don't actively discourage it.


In a lot of cases we are under strict gag orders from suppliers or manufacturers not to discuss new kit, new chassis' etc until they are released to the general public. As such this is impossible.

Not at all.

You don't have to announce the compatability or otherwise of each piece of hardware on the day of launch - a week or two's delay really won't make any difference. So all you need do is to get your talent access to the kit once it has already been launched - no gag order problems.


Depending on what hardware your using... I literally had a machine the other day where the only way to get the SATA RAID controller working was to recompile my kernel to include a new module... although admittedly I could have just used modprobe but I'm a stickler

Now that's just silly.

modprobe is the tool to load kernel modules - so you rebuilt a kernel just to avoid having to load the bit that was already built? That's crazy.


You misunderstood me there...

No I didn't.


I don't mean linux badges physically on our machines

No, nor did I.


but if we want to say this machine is "Ubuntu Compatible" then we have to go through their certification process or people like Canonical come after us with their lawyers, or we have customers complaining to Trading Standards that what we sold and advertised is not fit for purpose.

Yes, I'm aware of the issues with trademarking. As the maintainer of a distribution, I have a certain amount of experience here.


Believe me I would love nothing more than to supply Linux with all of our systems, and be able to offer support and advice to all of our customers who would like to give it a try. Unfortunately at the moment it just isn't possible due to all of the reasons mentioned above and many many more not mentioned here.

All the above is down to misconceptions about what is/isn't feasible, and what is available to you. None of the objections you've raised actually hold water - they're trivially overcome.

If you want to release a distro on your kit, all you actually need do is to provide access to that kit to people who can sort this out - that way, we can find out what components are used and how to configure the distro to work with it. Total effort required on your behalf - less than your last posting. Total cash outlay for labour - zero. Total exposure - whatever markdown would arise due to components no longer being brand-new (i.e. much the same as the showroom overhead for a given unit).

Vic.